Wes Tender

Don't I recall that CB Fry is based somewhere in the Midlands, hence his encyclopedic knowledge of clubs like Derby, Notts and Sheffield? So how come he is presumably prepared to travel all that way to see a game here, but somehow potential fans from Weymouth will just not bother? I wonder if he could enlighten us all as to what qualifies him to know what is in the minds of others when it comes to what they might want to watch in the way of entertainment and how far they might be prepared to travel to see it?

I thought that we had established that as I am probably quite a bit older than you, it ought to be me calling you sonny, sonny. And you in your deluded way, fail to acknowledge that this thing about "big" clubs changes with the passing of time. I realise that your definition of what constitutes a "big" club is based on what they have achieved sometime in the distant past, so you might as well call the Skates a big club based on their league domination when I was born and their two FA Cup final successes. It's really quite a simple concept, that with the changes of fortune of clubs, one club declines, many of the plastic fans in the area gradually transfer to a nearby successful rival. Now you might argue until you're blue in the face that this does not happen, but then it is you that is deluded. But I bow to your superior knowledge of what is in the minds of football fans in Weymouth and accept that because it is your opinion that none of them will be remotely interested in seeing the stars of the Premiership in action just 50 miles along the coast, it must be so.

As usual, you miss the point entirely. We are not discussing what other clubs in the Midlands could be doing if they found themselves in the Premiership. We are talking about what we could do now we find ourselves back in that position and without equally successful rival neighbouring clubs anywhere near us. You somehow fail to recognise that there are actually two strands to what was posted; one where the discussion centrered on our catchment area (and your argument that those 3 clubs you mentioned had equal potential) and the other strand is where historical perspective showed that the fortunes of clubs waxed and waned. Therefore it is certainly not the case that my mention of the historical position of clubs in the league proves that I am in agreement with your point about rival clubs' catchment areas. Is that clear? And really it's laughable that you mention that people didn't purchase a ticket after we finished second in the first division, signed the European player of the year and had success in Cup competitions. How do you suggest that we shoe-horned any extra fans into the small stadium that we had at the time? Or do you really believe that if we had a larger capacity stadium at the time, we would have struggled to get more people into it on the back of that success? But just to mention in the obtuse style that you're so fond of using to prove your points, in my league table neither Derby nor Nottingham Forest featured at all and Sheffield Wednesday were bottom. So what your conclusion is about that, who knows, what with your grasshopper thought processes.

Nice to have someone with a bit of historical perspective here. It seems that from the usual disparaging tone of CB Fry that he isn't old enough to remember the glory days of teams like Sheffield Wednesday, so perhaps I ought to call him sonny when he gets a bit uppity. I thought it would be interesting to see what the table looked like when I was a nipper of 6 and it was quite a surprise:- Chelsea Wolves Portsmouth Sunderland Man Utd Aston Villa Man City Newcastle Arsenal Burnley Everton Huddersfield Sheffield Utd Preston NE Charlton Tottenham WBA Bolton Blackpool Cardiff Leicester Sheffield Wednesday So no Liverpool until Shankly, no Leeds, no Nottingham Forest or County, no Derby. As you say, we are lucky that so many of those big clubs you mention aren't in the equation currently, but then again there are some of those clubs from that era that have fallen on hard times too and been replaced by others in the intervening times. Of course, neither were we on the radar then, but 27 years in the Premiership at least got us recognition and hopefully with another run of many years, the blip when we went down to the third division will fade in peoples' memories. We're a club on the way up and it's early days for our second bite at the Premiership. But the lessons of historical precedent are there to illustrate how the fortunes of clubs wax and wane.

Ah, the great Metropolitan Cities of Buxton, Belper and Bakewell. The New Forest, for all your sneering, actually has a population of 174,000. That's people, not horses by the way. Eastleigh and Winchester combined have a population of 240,500, pretty well the same as Southampton, so we are talking about around half a million people living within a radius of about 10 miles from the stadium just with those three, ignoring the additional populations towards Fareham which fall within that radius too. If you wish to believe that having a large population density in the catchment area surrounding us when there is simultaneously no other club at our level in that area, will make little difference to our future attendances, then go on thinking that. Where did I say that you were of the opinion that we couldn't break into the top four? I said that it was the perceived wisdom of some posters. And whilst we're about it, kindly point out where I said that if we were in the top four, we'd suddenly bring in thousands of fans from Trowbridge. We will no doubt be getting fans from Trowbridge, Milton Keynes, Welwyn Garden City, Margate, Truro during the next season. But they'll be coming to see ManUre. And how did you know that it was a party trick of mine drawing with a pen in my mouth? Probably more pertinent me calling you son, rather than the other way about, I expect. I was born between the two seasons that the Skates were first division champions. So unless you can beat that, then I suspect that at the very least I have more idea of historical perspective than you about the changing fortunes of football clubs. I can even remember when Sheffield Wednesday were a huge club and Liverpool were minnows. I also have a vivid memory of the Munich Air Crash.

Derby's got massive potential, what with their catchment area including the Peak District. My word, that's really densely populated, isn't it? When other clubs have potential, that's a fact, but when we've got potential, that's just an opinion and one that is met with derision. And Sheffield Wednesday, Derby and Notts Forest could be huge. Provided that they had decent managers, decent players, wealthy owners. But they don't, unfortunately. And anyway, the perceived wisdom by the most intelligent posters (at least in their own minds), on here is that the top four positions can never be breached. Mind you, I recall them saying that before Man City broke into the top four and before Liverpool left it. And Newcastle and Tottenham weren't doing quite as well then either. Things change, apart from certain individuals' perception of what is possible and what is written in stone. These are facts, by the way. Because I say so.

He's just so superior, isn't he? If there was an award for most arrogant poster, nobody else would stand a chance. He would win it year after year. It's useless trying to debate anything sensible against this towering intellect, as he is never wrong and his opinion cannot be challenged, unless one wishes to gain a response full condescending sarcasm. Again, were there awards for that, he would undoubtedly have no peers. He is the master of twisting what others say to suit his own position. If one dares to suggest for example that Southampton has a better catchment area than most other clubs at this level, it is translated in his small-mindedness into area, with a sparse population. In sharp contrast, the areas around his examples are more densely populated than Hong Kong. But like you, and I'm sure many others, his snide arrogance will not make people believe how clever he is; they will pity him, that he cannot indulge in debate without resorting to this puerility.

Really? I didn't think that it was possible to gain admission to the CL from the third division, so being in the Premiership makes it 2 divisions closer to being at least a possibility, even if improbable.

Lots of lovely loot laundered via the stadium expansion costs.

The difference between us is that we expect to live within our means, spending wisely with a rising income because of our promotion. Reading will spend as much as they can launder within the new regulations.

Please don't quote the imbecile. I suspect that he doesn't make sense whether he's sober or p*ssed. Apple can change the core product, but would that give the rivals the pip?

There is no evidence to suggest that Hoddle would have helped to continue our 7 year stay (ruin?) in the Premiership, but as we are conjecturing about what might have been, we might as well conclude that had we stayed up, so would we have kept Lowe, Askham, Richards and all that dross we had on the board. Personally, (and happy to be included amongst those who kicked up a stink about Hoddle's projected return), I prefer with the benefit of hindsight the journey we endured, falling down the divisions in order to rid ourselves of that boardroom dross and emerge anew with Markus Liebherr and Nicola Cortese in charge. It was all worth the pain to achieve the gain. And by the way Papa Shango, thanks for a great read. The only bit missing for me was mention of the board under Wilde, with Dulieu and Hone and also the takeover attempt by SISU.

And the same could be said of the Derby fans, of course. But even there the comparison is weighted in our favour, as the Skates are likely to cease to exist in anything resembling their current form, so apart from a hardcore who will follow them to Moneyfields or H & W, anybody who wants to watch a decent football match in their immediate catchment area will gravitate towards us. Although those actually living in Portsmouth might be difficult to budge, those between there and here will be easier as well as those outside of the city like Waterlooville, Cowplain, Cosham, Havant, etc.

I think that you're confusing population with catchment area, an easy mistake, as even those who consider themselves amongst the brightest intellects on the forum also don't realise the difference or the implications of it. Yes, Nottingham has a bigger city population than Southampton, but Southampton almost certainly has the bigger catchment area. Read this on Wikipedia:- Southampton combines with Portsmouth to form a single metropolitan area; with a population of over a million this makes the region one of the United Kingdom's most populous metropolitan areas.[5] There are several towns in close proximity to Southampton such as Eastleigh/Chandlers Ford, Romsey and Winchester that play a large part in our catchment area. There is nothing around Nottingham of comparable size to those within a similar radius, apart from Derby, which is closer to Nottingham than Portsmouth is to us.

I've also been over in Asia quite a bit this past decade. The situation will begin to change when the new Premiership season kicks off. We have been out of the top flight for 7 years, so we disappeared off the radar over there. It was interesting to see the changes recently when I was in Thailand just last month. Yes, ManUre and Liverpool are still prevalent, but there were numerous Arsenal and Chelski shirts too. But the increasing number of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan and Bayern shirts was noticeable this trip. In the Far East, they are football mad and watch it avidly on the telly. But these are the ultimate glory hunters, so naturally they get more exposure to the glory teams and reckon they gain kudos for supporting the teams that are successful, or with whom they can establish some sort of personal connection. So when we play the likes of ManUre, Chelski, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool, we will raise our profile and therefore the awareness of our brand. But it will only be by beating those glory teams and climbing the table that we will get the plastics to switch. Mostly, these are not the loyal types, they go with which way the wind is blowing. I have encountered a situation there whereby many young Thais were wearing Arsenal shirts. When asked how this came about, it became clear that the shirts had been awarded to them by a politician after their votes. They weren't particularly Arsenal supporters, but the brand was recognisable and cool in their eyes. Apart from the glory team brands, the other factor that affects support over there is having a team member from Asia. From that point of view, our matches will attract greater attention in Japan and Korea. If Lee establishes himself in the Premiership and is knocking in goals against the glory teams, that attention will increase. Regarding income from shirt sales, I doubt whether much of it finds its way to the clubs anyway, not even the glory teams, as most of it is fake. The revenue comes mostly from sponsorship and TV. For example, Air Asia has an association with ManUre and sells some branded goods on their planes. Everton and Leicester have done themselves no harm in Thailand being sponsored by Chang Beer and King Power, although Leicester's exposure isn't great while they are in the second division.

Of course you do, Dune. Ditto I'm sure one or more of the usual suspects too. I'm not remotely bothered unless that opinion is shared by people on here whose opinions I respect.

The old adage about somebody losing the argument if they have to resort to insults comes into play. You make a rather feeble attempt to provide a comparison to our catchment area, citing Nottingham, Derby and Leicester. I point out the weakness in your argument, because Nottingham is a two club city and that Derby is only 15 miles away from Nottingham. So you try and backtrack to wriggle off the hook by citing circumstances whereby all three would sell out 30,000 stadiums if they were in the Premiership too. Well, Einstein, probably so would Brighton, Bournemouth and the Skates (if they had a stadium that big) as well as us, if we were all in the Premiership at the same time. But of course, that was not the scenario we are discussing, is it? In case you need reminding, the assertion was that we have one of the largest catchment areas if we are in the Premiership and our neighbours are at a much lower level. I repeat for your benefit again, we are not discussing a scenario whereby one or more of our neighbours was also in the Premiership. I readily acknowledge that under those circumstances our catchment area would be diminished and have never said any different. And just to illustrate how your mind wanders onto other matters not being discussed, where did I mention Greater Hamble, let alone w ank over it? I'll let others decide who the thickie is here.

I'll just repeat it one more time, in case it manages to penetrate somehow, but as you thought that Nottingham and Derby were good examples of comparable catchment areas to ours, I very much doubt it. As already explained, Nottingham's catchment area, even in the city, is split between two old established clubs and the proximity of Derby lessens it still further. If one or other of those three clubs were to find themselves in the Premiership whilst the other two languished a couple of divisions below them, then their catchment area might have more relevance. That is the situation that we are now in, so our catchment area has significant importance to our prospects of increased attendances if we do well in the rop flight. As I say, if you choose to ignore that fact, then so be it. You won't even acknowledge the area that has been named Solent City, which incidentally does comprise ACTUAL PEOPLE believe it or not. Simple enough for you?

Just because you gave a poor example and are trying to hedge around it, I'm not going to answer obtuse further examples from you. If you can't understand the effects that a good catchment area has for our future attendances, I'm not going to explain it to you in more simple to understand language.

By OK, do you mean that you agree that you misread/miscomprehended/forgot what my answer was? I said that it was a tight one to call. It depends on a lot of factors that none of us are privy to the answers for. Why just because you ask the question again, would I now all of a sudden be in a position to be able to offer a different opinion?

So as usual, either your comprehension of the English language is poor, or your memory of what I said is poor, or else you deliberately misquote others to suit your position. And I wouldn't be the only one to accuse you of that, would I? To help you, I've highlighted the relevant part that qualifies my point. If you still miscomprehend, I'm afraid that I can't make it any simpler.

It is plainly you that is the spanner if you think that a catchment area has little to do with indeed any sort of enterprise, let alone football. And unless it had escaped your notice, we are not talking about the crowds that Nottingham Forest might attract if they were in the top four; they aren't even in the Premiership and not even above Derby. We are in the Premiership and the Skates will hopefully cease to exist even in the third division. So apart from Brighton who have a stadium of reasonable capacity and who aren't doing too badly, and the Skates' hardcore support of around 10,000 (optimistic), there is not much worth supporting if one wishes to see top quality football played by a Southern-based team, apart from us. Presumably you have heard the name "Solent City"? Well, we're right in the middle of it. You go on believing that it doesn't make any difference if you like, but it doesn't make you look like like somebody with a decent grasp of reality.

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Your geography isn't very good, is it? Apart from the fact that Nottingham has two clubs vying for fans' support, it is only 15 miles away from Derby, so citing Nottingham as an example of a club with a better catchment area than ours doesn't really stack up unless Derby emulate the Skates, who with luck will probably cease to exist soon.

All quite reasonable. CL finish very unlikely, but only a fool would rule it out as being impossible.