van Hanegem

Guess so, it made me look like von Richthoven in that classic Blackadder scene: "I love zhe British humour, allways joking about breaking zhe wind..." From now on I'll be my blunt Dutch self.

I know SOG, I was trying to be sarcastic but it appears I'm not any good at it...

I agree, even when you realise that Obama is responsible for all the drone attacks around the world and increasing the hatred against the West while doing so, both Trump and Clinton will be even worse.

What's wrong with that? A not so clever rapist may believe women belong to a different kind of race so you could call him a racist rapist when he rapes only women and not men... Take an illiterate muslim from some Arab desert who's brainwashed with the idea that you can do anything to infidels as Allah doesn't care so he and his mates have their fun with the ladies, then he is just a rapist and I'm a "cultural racist" for writing this. You have to see things in perspective you know...

You're right, but do you think it would help him against Clinton when he does get elected as the republican candidate?

7 out of 10 women in the USA haven an unfavorable opinion of Trump. I guess he's finished... http://www.politicususa.com/2016/04/01/gallup-7-10-women-unfavorable-view-trump.html

I don't know SOG, my brain tells me to listen to reason but my gut feels the opposite... Luckily it's not the other way around!

Thanks for the lesson Verbal but I didn't mean to say that the jihad is an anti western tool though it might be seen this way by some radicalised minds these days. I was referring to the end of the golden age of islam when the likes of Ibn Taymiyyah fought against the hellenic way of thinking and strived for the "renaissance of jihadism" in order to reach a society ruled by the sharia in it's purest form (I'm quoting here). Today militant muslims do see this Taymiyyah as the greatest islamic scholar and well, in my opinion he didn't help islam in the right direction to put it mildly. It would have been better when the Abbasids had stayed on longer, allowing the faith to explore and evolve. But what's your opinion on sharia vs European standards? Do you think these two can exist side by side in peace in Europe or do you think governments should do anything to annihilate sharia laws from our countries? Evolve instead of evaluate... Apparently it's difficult for me to write a report in Dutch and a post on this forum at the same time...

There's always a choice... You can look upon this in this way http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/175434/1-4-swedish-women-will-be-raped-sexual-assaults-daniel-greenfield or you could choose to not mention it at all http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372.

I'm afraid you're right, too many people are getting fooled or do not really know what's at stake. In the end clowns like Farrage don't help either as they cause to much disgust.

Great post Verbal, you're referring to the golden age of islam and that must have been a wonderful time. It is said that even the European Enlightenment owes a great deal to the Moors who even allowed Jews to walk around freely as they understood "business" had to go on. Too bad it all ended and stuff like the jihad and sharia took over in the 13th century, nothing good came out of this up to this day. I reckon this aspiration to find the "pure faith" has blocked the way to separation between the temporal and spiritual power like christianity did find. With the "political islam" ruling muslims be aware that they form a collective from which there is no escape, you'll be an outcast when you want out. Of course there are more than enough muslims in Europe who are kind individuals seeking their own way but more and more you hear about the sharia claiming it's role, especially amongst Sunni's. To me this is a clear and present danger to European norms and values as there are many things within the sharia which are opposing our liberal way of life. I do believe there's a connection between the rise of jihad and sharia in Europe and the troubled youngsters who are willing to blow themselves to pieces. I can't understand why governments of European countries don't act on this, especially England which even allows shariacouncils. What's your view on this?

This doesn't change anything as the EU will march on, no matter what the people think or feel. It's a good signal though but the one chance to end the madness is a Brexit. Well, at least it will be a start...

Christ, by these standards the majority of the Europeans is racist. Finally there's one thing Europeans have in common, let's call the EU! According to this list Western Europeans are even worse than the Eeastern Europeans: http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/10-most-racist-european-countries-towards-muslims-367218/

Re #3003 I guess you're misunderstanding me or I didn't explain myself well enough. I'm not saying there is some widespread plot by muslims in general to overthrow European culture (indeed, what's that, would the EU have an idea?), it's just that religious leaders from the Middle East do want to expand the islam around the world just like the Vatican did in the past and probably are still doing. The tone of voice is a little different to say the least. And yes, the Saudi's are funding mosques all over the world and I'm not going to dump all kind of links here. You can find them for yourself, I won't bother you with it furthermore. Of course this doesn't mean that every muslim is part of some conspiracy theory, what are you thinking of me? Clearly I don't see a terrorist in every muslim around me, just like I don't see a pedophile in every catholic I meet. It would be a hell of a life if I did... There are about 1 million muslims in Holland who originated from different parts of the world but mostly from Turkey and Morocco. Especially the latter form a subculture which is very difficult to penetrate for Dutch society as they form a very closed community not capable to integrate. Naturally that's not the case with each and everyone of this community and there are thousands and thousands of them who are succeeding in getting along just fine and contributing to Dutch society. One of them is called Aboutaleb who made it to mayor of Rotterdam and doing a fine job at it (in my opinion that is...). He's devout to his beliefs as a muslim and yet he's a mayor for everyone with a keen eye for the social problems in a difficult city like Rotterdam. I could nag here about the fact that even a successfull muslim like him can't accept that his daughters are having relationships wit infidels but that would be a bit daft as I wouldn't like to see my sons walking around with some burka girl either. No, Aboutaleb looks like a fair man to me and he knows the problems within the Moroccan community he belonged to. He literally said to them: "if you don't like it here then s*d off!" He also called upon muslims in Holland to express themselves on the massacra in Paris, to condemn it. Of course their was an immediate reaction from other leading muslims in Holland who said he was way off because the moderate muslim can't be blamed for the acts of terrorists... Of course they can't (duh..) but why is it so difficult for them to understand that it's necessary to distance themselves from the idiots? Why does it always have to be such an academic discussion instead of using their role model position to influence all their fellow muslims who are condoning the attacks in which very probably even other muslims are killed? I see the same kind of reactions on this forum: "yes the murders are awfull but don't forget that there are many other religions who also have their terrorist ways" or something like that. As if other people don't know that there are many other maniacs, how presumptuous! In Holland you can even hear people say: "you better not say that there is a problem with islamic culture, before you know they will be stigmatised like the Jews in the past and put in camps by people wearing brown shirts..." Yes, you've made clear that the forces of law and order must deal with people who break the law. But I believe that's not the solution as the idiots keep coming as long as we're not dealing with the real problem: too many people with an islamic background not integrating. It's more than 10 years ago now that the notorious film director Theo van Gogh was slaughtered on the streets of Amsterdam by a muslim lunatic. van Gogh was very outspoken and blunt on all kind of things including the islam. I didn't like the way he expressed himself but as a Dutchman I believe you can say anything you want (as long as it isn't an appeal for hate or violence) as it is the Dutch way. Not anymore, since the murder on van Gogh there's no one left who wants to make a joke on the islam in public as no one has a deathwish. So long freedom of speech... Oh yes, we have Geert Wilders, our notorious blonde politician who stands on trial at the moment for his disgusting remarks about Moroccans. He's becoming weirder and weirder but I guess that's logical as he goes from shelter to shelter each week, continuously surrounded by 6 bodyguards in order to hide from muslim fanatics. That reminds me, Wilders wasn't allowed to come to England by your government because of his remarks about islam. Why is it then that your government allows people like Haitham al-Haddad to stay in your country after his remarks that apostate muslims and adulterers should be sentenced to death? That's far more shocking than Wilders could even dream about... Instead of kicking al-Haddad out of the country they let him be the chairman of a group of advisors of islamic organisations in the UK, including the sharia council. The freedom of speech in the UK is only there for radical muslims?

Thanks for your reply Charlie. I was thinking about leaving for Riyadh in Saudi Arabia to capture a religious leader, inject him wiith sodium pentothal and film his confession in order to make things clear to you. But hey, we have youtube these days so I can spare myself the trip: Ok, ok, this clip is manipulative like hell but at least you can hear them dreaming of world domination. At this moment it's still the Vatican which has the most power in the religious world (they even have a chair in the UN!) and I'm not happy with that either. But if I had to choose I'd rather be dominated by the pope then by some caliph, though it would be uncomfortable to wear a chastity belt all the time... Off course these antisemitic incidents are more the exception rather than the rule in Dutch classrooms, like I said: it just happens in some classrooms in the big cities and only if kids with an islamic background are the majority. We don't have tabloids like The Sun in Holland which are just looking for sensation. There's one newspaper (the Telegraaf) of which you could say they're looking for sensation but it never gets that ugly like you're used to in England. No, even the serious press reports about the problems with these kids, just like they did after Brussels (and Paris, Madrid, London, New York) when these kids went cheering "Allahu Akhbar..." Knowing that the Dutch press is downplaying on these reports (less than the German press which censors itself in a ridiculous way but still...) it's not that hard to understand there's more happening than we know. Like it's not that hard to assume that there are potential "homegrown terrorists" among them as these kids get the idea that they are rejected and discriminated. Their parents don't look after them (when I lived in Amsterdam there were always kids on the street late at night, even 5 and 6 year olds) and with all the satellite dishes on these flats you know they're only watching foreign tv channels where they also can see the imbeciles from the clip above. You could say they're brainwashed in a bad way and too often they're lost in petty crime and even hard crime (drugs). We're confronted this last decade with the "Mocro Wars", Moroccan gangs who are slaughtering each other over drugs, not even relucting to chop off a head which was placed at the pavement facing a meeting place from the "enemy". But the ones lost in petty crime are easy picks for recruiters for the "holy war" as they are feeble minded, not educated, not integrated and certainly not successfull in their lives. When someone tells them they're acting the wrong way, gives them an overload of information on how the west is guilty of their failure and of killing their kind of people in the Middle East and ultimately gives them a perspective of being someone important for the faith, you can understand the reason why there are so many of them from Belgium and Holland willing to offer their life. I believe it's just a matter of time: there will be a massacre in Holland too and we're not able to prevent this as this islamic culture is a world of it's own and not open to Dutch society. Do you think these lot will be different? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPx8iFovXvk I don't. The more they come, the bigger the problem will get. Imagine them or their kids in a classroom listening to a teacher who wants to tell about the holocaust. Do you believe they will feel sorry for the Jews? So far on the islam and antisemitism. What's your opinion on islam and the freedom of speech? I believe England had the dubious honour to be the first country which was confronted with the retarded conception of islam towards this fundamental right in Europe when Salman Rushdie wrote "the Satanic verses". In this clip (from the 14th minute) you can see the man from Bradford (nice place by the way ) who wrote a letter to ayatollah Khomeini in Iran and the reaction of the CEO from Penguin books in that era. With whom do you sympathise? http://www.npo.nl/speeches/03-01-2016/VPWON_1201081

You're right, this discussion is off topic, my bad... Maybe I can make things up to the others by giving this link: http://www.npo.nl/het-groot-brittannie-van/15-03-2015/VPWON_1223403 It's a contribution from Sathnam Sanghera to a Dutch televisionseries on Great Britain from 2015 in which you can see and hear members of Ukip talk about a Brexit (if you don't want to see it all, skip to the 29th minute). After seeing this I could imagine you would like to vote "no" just to tease the idiot with his white and red tie. But then your vote will be based on an emotion and that's never a good thing when it comes to politics. I remembered this episode Charlie because of your comment on British muslims. Sanghera interviews one Simon Heffer from the Daily Mail (I know, I know, right wing and so on) who wrote a biography on his friend Enoch Powell. In this interview they talk about the integration of different migrant groups, saying Powell was wrong about sikhs and afro-caribbean who clearly integrated well. If I understand it right, Heffer is saying this is not the case with muslims who came with too many to integrate. Do you think he's wrong when you look beyond your own working and family relationships? Just as well there might be no problems with muslims in England at all because like you said: they are predominently from Pakistan or Bangladesh. I've travelled through Indonesia several times and was always impressed with the kindness of it's inhabitants who are mostly muslim. Only of late things are changing in some parts of Indonesia due to Saudi's funding a more fundamentalist approach of their belief. I understand you don't want to trivialize the issue of antisemitism and I know you mean well. Maybe I've met too many Dutchmen looking away from the problem... I'll give you another example: there are schools in our big cities where classrooms are dominated by kids with an islamic background and because of that it happens more and more that history teachers can't teach about the holocaust because the kids start yelling that Hitler was the good guy or because the parents of these kids complain about these lessons. You can hear Dutchmen react like: "well, look at the Feyenoord fans who shout "Hamas, Hamas, all the Jews need gas" when they play against Ajax (their fans call themselves Jews as a nickname). This is a totally different problem and it buggers me that it's used as some sort of excuse for the problems at these schools. I'm acquainted with a teacher who works with these kids and he laughed at me when I asked him how he managed to deal with them. He said: "you really think that I teach them? We just do some nice things, they're to stupid or unwillingly to learn anything after all..." I'm not saying all muslims are engaged in an attempt to obtain world domination. May God spare us from that... I've shown you the resolution of Strasbourg of '75 which stands for oil in exchange for more muslim immigration in Europe, I've told you Saudi Arabia funds Isis and refuses to give shelter to refugees (well, they had 561 refugees according to the UNHCR last time I looked...), you can look for yourself on the internet what they are doing in Indonesia (for example http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/05/international/asia/05INDO.html) and how they are funding mosques in Europe. If you want to speak of a central power at work you don't have to look any further than the Saudi's and you can easily drop the word "sinister". If that's not enough for you to be convinced than I guess you also believe there are still weapons of mass destruction in Iraq... (just joking Charlie ) If you want to continue this discussion (I would appreciate this!) I suggest we continue in that other topic you mentioned.

Oh, I can only agree that antisemitism (when you use this term to address only the hatred against Jews) is still vivid in Europe, especially the eastern part of it. The Dutch also have a nasty history with refusing fleeing Jews from Germany back in the '30s of last century though they also were the only ones who stood up against the nazi's when it came to the deportation of Jews. I guess it's due to the small population of the Jewish community in Holland that they could live in peace and without fear for a long time. Yet, times have changed and now more and more Jews are thinking about leaving the country for the sake of their children. Let's be clear on this: this has nothing to do with lingering old sentiments of antisemitism in Europe, it's very obvious it's because off the islamic culture rising in a city like Amsterdam and nothing else. You can't condone this by saying "these attitudes and forms of behaviour are by no means limited to the followers of any religious faith", that way you are trivialising things, looking away from the facts happening right before your eyes. Do I blame the EU for the fact that Holland does have many problems (like antisemitism, the principle of equality, the freedom of speech and so on) with islamic culture nowadays? Yes and no. According to Buctootim it's useless to look back but as you mentioned it I'll go into this. The Dutch government welcomed the idea of taking in workers from Turkey and Morocco (and from Spain and Italy too but you will understand those are gladly accepted) by companies back in the '60s. They forgot to give a work permit only for the time they were needed, like the Swiss are still doing. So initially we can only blame ourselves off course. However, might I remind you of the oil crisis back in 1973? I know, it wasn't called the EU back then but see what those idiots have done because they were afraid of not getting enough oil... They signed a treaty called the Resolution of Strasbourg in 1975, see the parts written in blue and start weeping: https://ejbron.wordpress.com/2015/02/15/de-resolutie-van-straatsburg/ What the hell were they thinking? The scary part is that they're still acting on it... I assume that you know that the rich Arabian countries refuse to give shelter to refugees. Why is that? Because they do not want muslims with a different view on their ideology? That might be plausible as you can't have too many different opinions on Mohammed cs. in your country, before you know they start throwing bombs around or blow themselves to pieces and we can't have that, can we now? Yet, I believe there's another reason and that is that islam has one ultimate goal: world domination. Especially the fanatics in Saudi Arabia will have tears of joy in their eyes with so many muslims leaving for Europe, there's a world to conquer... See how they're funding fundamentalists in Indonesia, the biggest muslim country in the world which used to be very moderate. See how they are funding Isis and see how they're funding mosques all over Europe, it should open your eyes to what is really happening. Off course you can look upon things through the eyes of a westerner raised with high morals, enlightened by education and thinking Sour Mash or me are sad individuals, scared with the changes going on or coming. It would be the politically right thing to do off course. You would be wrong though...

You don't have to defend yourself Charlie, I'm just interested in your opinion on these matters. As a Dutchman I'm used to live in a multi cultural society and I still like it as I believe it's a good thing when a society opens up for other influences in order to enrich itself. I might be wrong but I guess you look upon this the same way as I do. However, it doesn't mean that I close my eyes for the problems we have with migrants from islamic countries (mainly from Morocco and Turkey). We have them for more than 40 years now with the 4th generation coming and still you can't say that the majority has integrated. The racist views on blacks, jews, gays etc. are shocking, their overrepresentation in jail sentences and unemployment figures despite the nurturing and positive discrimination from the government, it is all too clear they're failing to adept. Mind you, off course there are also examples of them who do adept because they're able to leave their background. Especially the girls who grab the chances offered to get an education are offering a glimpse of hope. But mingling with non-muslims is a long way off for most of them and in my opinion that's the only way to break up the walls their islamic background has built carefully around them. I know some so-called moderate moslims, nice blokes who drink a glass of beer and don't think every Dutch girl in a short skirt is a whore. They can even stand a joke about their belief but ask them what they will do to their sisters when they would leave their religion... Well, they wouldn't stone them anymore to put it in a positive way. It looks like we have to wait another 40 years before they wake up... I dislike any form of religion (like Matt Johnson from The The wrote a long time ago: "it's why human beings are still walking on all fours, it's why they have to worship or to damn the things they do not understand") but I don't have any problem with someones beliefs as long as there's no harm done to others or to norms and values of a society. There's a difference between following religion and someones faith. To me it seems that migrants from islamic countries are holding on far to much to the rules of their religion which doesn't fit in the tolerant (I don't like this word but I can't come up with a better one) and open European societies. We had the Enlightenment a long time ago and we got rid of most of the bullsh*t of the catholic and protestant church and we shouldn't allow the islam to go on warpspeed to put us back in time... Saudi Arabia refuses to give refugees shelter but they're willing to give millions to built mosques in Germany and Holland, why is that? I don't have an instant solution to alter the current situation off course but it's clear that we have to learn from all the past decades when things went wrong. We don't want to end up like the Swedes whose society is completely wrecked and who are now willing to sent away tens of thousands of refugees. In the refugee shelters in Holland we see the same sh*t: rape of women travelling alone, christians and gays being molested and racist views upon different coloured people. So we have to find a way to detoxify those infected with too much poison from their religion and culture before they take a step in our societies. I know this sounds a bit weird but hey, the Norwegians are already doing it by showing the "testosteronebombs" pictures of women with exciting dresses while telling them these ladies are not offering their bodies... It shouldn't be that difficult to make a complete program out of this and off course there should be this sanction: when you're not able to comply with the rules you'll go back to the godforsaken place you came from. Or am I being too harsh now?

In order to deal with migration problems you have to get your authorities wide awake. How do you do that? I guess complaining is a beginning? For example: the Jewish community in Amsterdam can't move freely without being spit on, threatened, humiliated or sometimes beaten up by scum with an islamic background. Rather than taking some "Israelian measures" to deal with this scum I'm happy they complained so now the authorities in Amsterdam are guarding Jewish institutions like schools and synagogs. I'm not sure if they're really happy with the outcome of their complaints though...

In Holland we compare apples with pears, maybe you should too... You're too serious about this comparison, off course you can't eradicate any religion. It would take a lot of guns to do that and they were taken away before...

Nice post Chapel End Charlie, I would like to dream along with you but I'm afraid the nightmare around us is keeping me awake... Did you read Ben Judah's "This is London, Life and Death in the World City"? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/this-is-london-by-ben-judah-review-astonishing-and-valuable/) It gave me the impression that your capital is going back to the times described by Charles Dickens instead of some old Coca Cola advert. And there's no law or government to prevent this. Speaking of which, why are Sharia Councils admitted in England by your government and justice institutions? I know they are only allowed to rule on matrimonial affairs but what the heck? I read this article in a Dutch magazine (https://www.vn.nl/zo-werken-de-shariaraden-in-engeland/) and as it is in Dutch I'll translate the opening of the article for you in which a case about a divorce (asked by a muslima) is witnessed: Husband: I believed that muslims in a non-islamic country should abide the laws of the land they live in? Quadi: We have the islam, worldly courts don't have islamic laws, can a kafir (infidel) judge on islamic affairs? Husband: No Quadi: Is marriage an act of worship? Husband: Yes Qadi: Can a non-muslim say: "I, John who don't believe in God, I'll allow you this divorce? Husband: No Is this the way the British are trying to comprehend or deal with the different culture they come from? Do you accept this kind of parallel society?

Sometimes you have to compare apples with oranges to make people rethink their point of view so how about this: when you take away the gun no shot is fired. When you take away religion there's no need to slaugther non-believers... Does it make any sense to you?

I know what you mean, when you state that the American National Rifle Association is stupid by saying that it's not the gun which kills but the person who is holding it, they all agree. When you say that the islam (or any other backward religion for that matter) is the cause of all this bloodshed than you are a an intolerant fascist. How dare you compare a religion with a smoking gun? It's the idiots who abuse religion who are to blame!

I was lucky to have an older brother with a wide taste in music. I was only seven and found Dylan to be some old nag and Zappa too complex. ELP however got a hook on me immediately and I favoured their debut album, Tarcus and Pictures for an Exhibition for years until Punk and later on New Wave came along. Nowadays it's fun again to listen to ELP, UK and so on..

Uh oh, that's also a delicate issue on this forum? I'll look for it!