david in sweden

re Saint lards comment above ... Looks like the governing bodies may still have a say. If Everton get further punishment now or later , and Leeds and /or Leicester get the same then a lot of clubs may end up in another league with points deduction to boot then a lot of celebrations may be short-lived.

Yes you made a good point Whitey, but I guess this is one we ....." should agree to disagree on "....we only need to wait 48 hours to get the answer. The result is still immaterial but I'd like the best and fittest available going into the play-offs and if we don't know the best line-up by now, there is a real problem.

Many have remarked that this is " a meaningless game ", and whilst that maybe true from Saints' viewpoint, it's desperately important for Leeds. Whilst they have a superior GD , they must beat us to get promotion, whilst hoping Ipswich will lose, as even a draw will be enough for Ipswich to go up. With the prospect of winning the play-offs is a big challenge without Gavin Bazunu and Stuart Armstrong's availability, it's the last chance for those " bench candidates" to impress RM before he chooses his starting side for the play-offs. Although some may think he is... "doing Leeds a favour " if he plays too many of the " second string " an appears to play....an understrength side. In truth... he may be trying to " protect " those key players who will be needed for the next 3 weeks and who are vital whilst we still have the chance to get the final promotion spot. I think we should be glad if everyone gets through the match without injuries. It seems RM has settled for Macca as the keeper for the play-offs, so he should surely give Joe Lumley an outing in this " meaningless match". We older fans who recall the successful Leeds' sides of the 1960'-70's may also remember the oft-quoted comment that Leeds were... " tough, but fair ". Something their fans regularly ignored when they would provoke visiting sides... ( like LIverpool .. ) with chants of ..,,." you'll never walk again " . I think this may be a very tough match, and not particulary fair, either.

more than 2 months ........since anyone has posted anything on Adam Armstrong's ongoing contribution throughout the campaign. Having played second-fiddle to Che Adams since his arrival, at last we have seen something of the form we hoped for when we first signed him. The first striker to get to 20 goals - since Danny Ings - plus a dozen assists has earned him the Players Award AND the same accolade from the Fans. It is also notable that he is often the first to track back when the opposition gets a counter attack, and tackles as well as any defender. He has deputised for Jack Stephens on many occasions this season and is a good role model at both ends of the pitch and truly deserves these awards. well done Adam.

Whitey, YES .. I am aware of the contract situation for those players you mentioned, but my thought was (worse case scenario) we might keep them for an extra year if all else fails. Someone wrote that Stuart A. was ready to retire?, but he'll be hard to replace and if needed.. an extra year might be a win-win situation. I'm expecting (and hoping) that Adams will move on, but if he doesn't find a good fit, would it do harm to keep him if we don't find the replacement we want?. I don't expect THB to stay in any case, but the goalkeeping spot will be a primary concern. Most Prem. and quite a few Championship clubs have an experienced international from somewhere, but keeping Macca for another season until Bazunu is 100% fit would be a panic decision if a " new find " is impossible. Would we keep any of the loan-outs who.. (theoretically) ..should return to Staplewood when their overseas season(s) are over? Bella-Kotchap, Onuacho, Caleta-Car, Perraud or .Lyanco and Lis ? Aside from Lis ..they all cost money . Would we release them and take a loss..or.. ?

It's a team game and much as I dislike criticising individual players there are a few who... (for various reasons)... just aren't up to it. Those who show " on the ball skills" , and a little attacking flair just don't score regularly enough ( Brooks, Mara ). I was impressed by Edozie's efforts but in every game his enthusiasm is tempered by thundering tackles from bigger / stronger defenders, who " aren't used to taking prisoners ", and Sam is often first to subbed on, he is also one of the first to go off off if chosen to start. The majority of our squad (exception the CB's).. are " lightweight and (to be frank).. too short " to be effective and withstand such treatment in every game. It's not fair to start dismembering the squad before we are out of the plays-off BUT even if we qualify for the third place , major changes will be necessary.

leaving aside the comments about your anatomy....... Although I agree that we desperately need to strengthen the squad in EVERY area before August what a pleasant thought all those replacements might be... .except that they really do need to be " quality players" who ; ............ 1) no-one else is after...... 2) who we can afford without breaking the bank....and 3) whatever the outcome of the play-offs in May we will need to renew around half the squad whether - we go up or not. Even if we kept; Macca, Stephens, and Stuart A. for a while longer, we have at least 4 loan players with only Downes likely the likely prospect to sign... (if he wants to).. and we've seen that a few of the remainder aren't even up to Championship standard. Harwood-Bellis might only stay if we get promotion NOW, whilst Adams, Bednarek and Walker-Peters will want a move to a higher level, if we fail to get the third spot, and face the prospect of playing ANOTHER season in this league. Sadly, the Academy successes tend to come and go and at present there are few stand-our talents likely to make the breakthrough to first team level.

A very good read cushiro, especially as an amateur Saints' historian for over six decades myself, I noted that you had done a lot of homework. A few other points that might add to this brief, yet comprehensive record of the two clubs. Peter Rodrigues wasn't the only former Leicester player to sign for Saints and got his reward some years after being a Cup Final loser at Wembley, when he captained Saints to a Cup Final victory over Man Utd in 1976. The aforementioned Leicester lad, Peter Shilton came to Saints (via N. Forest) to Lawrie McMenemy's great 1980's squads that could boast 5 players who had captained England at some time in a more glorious past. Back in 1961. Saints signed Leicester's Tony Knapp, a superb Centre Half who was part of England's 1960 World Cup squad and narrowly missed being capped himself. It took a club record fee to draw Knapp to the South Coast where he superbly captained the team that won promotion to Division One in 1966, and was a consummate professional for 6 years with Saints and rarely missed a game. One of the more humorous episodes between Leicester and Saints came back in the 1970's , when Saints travelled to Filbert Street after a day of torrential rain and where both sides " literally walked on water" ...as they tried vainly to pass the ball that rarely went 6 feet from the kicker. The referee gave the whole thing up as a bad job after 25 minutes and the match was abandoned. This hilarious sequence can be found on You Tube. Saints' experiences of heavy defeats v. Leicester goes back a long way. In October 1967, Leicester visited the old Dell ground on one of those wet, blustery days that are not uncommon on the South Coast and beat Saints 5-1 ..(with an 89th minute goal coming from Peter Shilton) when his huge kick-out was carried downfield by the high wind and bounced over the Saints' keeper Campbell Forsyth who was off his line. Our most memorable match (in weather conditions not dissimilar to the match mentioned above), is far more recent and one that Saints' fans prefer to try and forget. In high winds and blinding rain Saints' England international Ryan Bertrand was red-carded for a dubious foul that the referee had ignored, but that an eagle-eyed VAR official had taken up .. and suddenly Saints were down to 10 men after just 15 minutes, and with the wind at their backs, Vardy and Co. took full advantage and finally ran our as 9-0 winners. (Ouch) ! I often felt that Saints were a good match against Leicester - even if the scoreline didn't always reflect that, but on occasions (like last Tuesday). there are times when they were clearly the better side. Leicester fans can count themselves unfortunate that they never saw the best of Bertrand and Vestergaard who were superb in Saints' defence in an earlier period. Saints fans, only hope that Jamie Vardy retires - before we get to play Leicester the next time, as his goal-scoring record against Saints is incredible.

.You wrote ....." at their respective relegation-threatened clubs " . Whilst many on here seem to think that RM has done a poor job because he has failed to get us automatic promotion at the first attempt. I don't think we would look to hire a manager who has " successfully helped his club avoid relegation " It will be interesting to see how many of them still have their jobs by New Year , if their clubs haven't improve in form by then, and it can be noted that most of the clubs they manage are also playing in lower- level divisions, and even then struggling to survive. Given the quality, (or lack of it) we have compared with previous seasons. We sold our most consistent and talented players, and most-promising newcomers to help keep us solvent, and brought in half a dozen loan players (who clearly weren't good enough for their own Prem. squads) and have thankfully been almost totally reliant on the goals of two strikers who have found their true level in this league, after failing to DAJFU at the higher level. No sorry, I don't see any of those named above were better choices than RM. All things considered, I am pleased and surprised that we have done this well.

All points are well made Saints 86. In the final analysis our presumptive failure to get any promotion may well be put down to the disasters in September, after which we had sunk to 15th spot with just 10 points (of 24) - all of which were earned thanks to goals in the last five minutes and /or added time. We lost Ward-Prowse, Tella, Lavia, Livramento, Salisu and Djenepo and bought in just two players (Manning and Charles) whilst loaning five more at short notice; Manning, Downes, Fraser, Holgate and Harwood-Bellis (who incidentally didn't play until game 6 ...(which was Leicester (h). By the time we recovered form and beat Leeds (h) .....we had already used 21 players, and had lost Alcarez, Stephens, Edozie, Smallbone and Downes to shorter periods of injury, whilst Stephens was out for 3 months. Those 20 plus unbeaten games got us results, but we dropped serious points at home; in defeats v. Hull and Millwall (were unforgiveable), and the draw v. Rotherham (we had 80% possession and 22 shots to 4 ) tell their own story. The 37 goal partnership (Adams and Adam Armstrong) may sound impressive, but we badly needed a third striker capable of getting into double figures, and the many missed chances by other players were to numerous to be reckoned. Promotion and relegation issues are always down to missed chances and shots hitting the woodwork. What's left will become history.

Yes a lot of names but few of them could have been seriously considered... .or ? YES - We were forced to sack Ralph, despite his brave attempt and Danny Rohl may have been better than RH in many aspects and went to a better level - so why would he come back to a relegated club? After Nathan Jones got the push, Selles got the task - by default, but wasn't convincing enough to land the job. ...unless perhaps we had survived. Was Nigel really considered I wonder? Our fans would have loved him I'm sure, but it's the team that must deliver the goods / or not. I'm pleased that Nigel found a new job, but Kelvin would never have been in the reckoning, but he has won some brownies points in saving Eastleigh from relegation in the National League (!) Surely we sought someone with a better pedigree, and RM almost made it last season with Swansea We don't know who else was considered, but the much-vaunted Plymouth fellow didn't last long after his move. Once again it was down to making a choice from those who didn't make the cut and others who may not have wanted to move / or just didn't fancy the task of taking on a relegated side who were about to sell all their best players and build a team with kids and loan players. Promotion or not, all things considered I think Russell Martin has made a valiant effort - and deserves another season if we don't win the third spot, the real problem may be - if we do get promoted ...then he will be hunted by some " bigger fish in the Prem. pond " ...and then we start all over again.

So what constitutes " failure " from a fans perspective ? Should we sack the guy because some fans think he's "failed ".? ..so the question remains... should a manager who failed to get his Championship side promoted first time be sacked? 1) losing the club's best talents and (2) fielding a side half-full of new, untried youngsters and loan players, ultimately be the right choice to keep a failing side in the Prem. ?. ... I doubt that and so too ...(I suspect)...that the Brighton Board have another problem in that having sold their best talents to the " big clubs " in the last 2 years , and recouped huge sums of money .(perhaps over 200 million) and failed to replace them, they still haven't cured the basic problem, and we've been down that road, too. (Someone above).. wrote that Martin was the Board's best choice " at the time " perhaps he was?, and if so what " success " have those who we rejected had ? I 'm saddened to read those on here ... who seem to think that there are good, experienced managers hanging around the " unemployed Manager's Job Centre " (or in their case..... on a beach or golf course somewhere) just waiting for Saints to offer them the job... only for the fans to discover why they were unemployed in the first place. You can only employ someone who is available at the time, and often they just aren't there when you need them most. ( For better or worse, both Liverpool and Man. Utd, are about to find out the answer to that problem). Ronald Koeman was a good choice - at the time, but none of his successors have come anywhere near the success that his squad's had and got us European football . Hasenhuttl did minor miracles in keeping us up, whilst working with an empty transfer chest, and those who followed him were only waiting for lifejackets on a slowly-sinking ship Looking at; those players who are out of contract / unlikely to stay,.... and loan players returning to their parent clubs, or signing elsewhere, next season's Saints squad will need another major overhaul, regardless of whichever league we are in. IF ...it hasn't always shown it on the pitch, I think RM has made a half-decent job .. given the tools he had from the start. He's worth another season in the Championship - if that's the outcome, but a season back in the Prem?.. raises bigger issues.

OK let's try again Russell. No-one should reasonably blame the coaching staff if we don't get wins v. Stoke and Leeds (especially) On a good day ( and thankfully we've had a few of those ) ..our squad performed well and we've had some good results, even though not good enough for automatic promotion. Bazunu has taken the blame for some goals, but performed well more often that not, but now with his long term absence ..we face the prospect of having Joe Lumley as the only goalkeeper on the books, after Macca leaves in the summer. As automatic promotion has now gone and a play-off place is a certainty ..why do we not give Joe the remaining games to show his potential as a possible candidate for Prem. football next season? As it stands we cannot start next season ( in whatever league) with only two keepers and not even be sure that Bazunu will be 100% fit by January ...and able to show his best from from the start. We will need to sign an experienced, (preferably international) keeper before August, and if Joe has a chance of vying for the number one shirt we need to get a good look at him NOW, and not leave it until he plays 45 minutes in one of those non-sensical, pre-season warm-up games, and then have to choose someone else for the bench spot next season.

Despite the goals they have scored ..we are too reliant on Adams and Adam .A. with no other goalscorer anywhere near double figures. At this rate we'll need to scrap this lot and sign up a new squad starting with a good goalie (or two), some brute force in midfield and another two strikers to replace Adams and Mara, because it'll need some real magic for us to get the third promotion spot and the thought that most Prem. sides would beat us out of sight if we did go up.

Not sure if McCarthy could be blamed for the goals we conceded at Cardiff ? ... but with the prospect of automatic promotion now only existing in a Hollywood script... isn't it time to give Joe Lumley the goalies gloves for tonight's game and and see if could be a serious contender as a custodian next season - regardless of whichever league we will be in. With McCarthy out of contract in the summer and Bazunu out until after the New Year (and needing to be in top form from his first game), Joe will be the only goalie (on paper) by the end of the summer. Serious (experienced ) replacements are a real priority here. With the known absentees in midfield, the central trio will likely pick itself and with Mara on suspension.. ( silly boy ! ) ..we are likely to see a couple of Academy names on the bench, with serious chances of getting game time. ...( and I who thought Leeds would be the key fixture ).