Robsk II

it's an interesting point; one we and the media have discussed before. The interesting thing is that many of the greatest things about our nation in recent history have been things that have been about attitudes, not specific things. I feel proud of our variety of cultures, I feel proud of our role in WW2, defying dictatorship etc, I feel proud of our history in terms of being an early democracy and so on, I feel proud that we had equal rights in many things earlier than quite a lot of other countries. I even feel proud of some of more outdated things, like Waterloo, Trafalgar and so on - but not because it was against the Frenchies, you know? The problem, as I said, is that too many people interpret that kind of thing as a license to continue to be hostile towards the old enemy rather than celebrate the positives from our side. It's the same with the world wars. The same old antipathy towards the Germans remains with many people, and it's insane, particularly for younger generations. The Euro 96 coverage of our game with them, with Psycho on the back and all the war imagery - the cheap digs and nazi references - it was sickening in my opinion, and thankfully there was some backlash at the time.

Like what, exactly? The US has generally been called arrogant because they don't seem to give a **** about other people or certain groups in their foreign and domestic policy. That's hardly ideal imo.

Hmm, I'm not sure I see the last part as being true, ie, the environment in which the NSDAP was formed - surely that had a whole lot more to do with weak politics elsewhere, the massive financial crash at the end of Weimar, and, of course, resentment after Versailles etc? But I agree in the most part. Despite the more genuine 'daily mail readers' ( ) here trying to label anyone with any balance as a loony leftie, I totally agree that people should be able to fly the St George, etc. Equally, those that do it in a way to deliberately intimidate ethnic minorities etc (which does happen in isolated cases) should also be dealt with - but because of the intent, not the tradition itself. We are a very tolerant country for the most part, and that's one thing that makes me proud of the UK too - but - and this was the point of the post in some ways - amidst an increase in immigrant population as a perceived 'problem', we should be even more mindful than usual of prejudice, hate crime, lazy "us and them" thinking, mindless jingoism etc, than usual.

I don't think it always does, DSM - I just think that many people who do celebrate English culture and tradition miss the point a bit and end up being negative towards others. It certainly shouldn't have to condemn others, I totally agree. I also agree that many councils get the balance totally wrong.

Agreed. It's exactly what I'm talking about, the aggressive, unrestricted nature of capitalism, the globalisation that follows, and the more immoral side of it. It needs to be regulated in some way, IMO, or this will continue to be the case. We won't, and shouldn't, stop media artefacts and so on - but we should be seeking to ensure that our own cultural devices are as influential as those from elsewhere. We have litigation culture here now as well, another example of stupid informational flow from the US. I would say, though, that it's hard for us to say what does and does not constitute the 'natural melting pot' these days, seeing as the world we live in facilitates such rapid transit of such vast quantities of information that there's nothing to compare it to historically. In some ways, if it happens at all, it absolutely is 'natural' in this regard. It's just very destabilising and hugely impacting, but it is just how the world is now, for better or worse. Also - I personally would worry that any attempts to celebrate being English would inherently condemn other cultures. That's always the problem with nationalism of any form. Too many people don't actually get it.

For you, yes.

Taxi driver

Again, Shane - if anything longer than a few words is too much for you, or you have no interest in anything other than how best to be an idiot, don't bother to read the thread. Miserableoldgit, I actually agree that cultural heritage is important - I was raising it as a concept, because most people don't even think about that. yet most of our cultures are melting pots anyway. I guess that we would retain some local heritage regardless of how far down the hegemonic trail we go, but the 'smaller' the world becomes, the less diversity there would be - at least in the traditional sense. maybe different forms of cultural artefact would manifest themselves, I suppose it all depends on what happened. It's an interesting question - why do we think of it as important? Is it due to primal feelings of belonging, tribalism etc? In real terms - cold, technical ones - it might not be that important. The thing is, we feel that it is, and within that, it must be. I'm actually not that fussed about nationalism. I am proud to be English in my own way, love the country in my own way, but I'm not so stupid to think I wouldn't feel the same if I'd been born anywhere else, pretty much. I genuinely think of myself as a citizen of the world first, england second. That's not as loony as it might sound! But it means I try to be objective about my nationality, and as such, I do recognise that in the grand scheme of things - on a pure efficiency level - culture is both not that relevent and due to shift and change hugely over long terms anyway. Again, this isn't about my views - that's with my head rather than my heart! And I reiterate that I believe there will always be diversity - I would argue that geographic, economic, social conditions dictate that, not to mention human nature. We will always resist hegemony in some way. I'm never quite sure how aggressively we should safeguard our own now in the light of that fact. What parts should we hold on to, what should we allow to evolve and shift? A lot of people would hold onto parts that others would perceive as negative.

Hacienda, perhaps you're right, but maybe I live in hope that human nature itself can move forwards. MOG and StThrobber, I'm all for sensible debate based in reality and with people open to the facts. I am not 'loony left' just because I deplore hate crime etc. I always say I'm a pragmatist above all else, and I stand by this. As it happens, I've made points elsewhere about capitalism left to run wild, and other things, has led to an increased hegemony of cultures - it's quite true that nations are in danger of losing some of their cultural heritage. One question that is pertinent here is - and this is a tricky one - does is actually matter, and why? Is this not progress? What is the point of conservatism for its own sake? Also - I am actually in total agreement that some of the stuff has gone [the oft-said] 'too far'. I've always said that if you make a choice to live in another country, you make a choice to abide by its laws and the social constructs that are key to the nation. Equally, you should be allowed to freely practice your own cultures, have your own values and beliefs etc, provided it doesn't impact negatively on that already in place. I have no idea about that Muslim story and the police station, but what I would say is this - why blame the muslims? It seems to me to be more a result of daft policy-making and so on. If there are idiots within their community who make a song and dance if they get rightly ticketed, then lambast them - not the whole group. That's where prejudice and lazy thinking come in (and I'm not saying you were doing this, by the way - just suggesting a course of action). The 'happy holidays' bull**** is not something I agree with. I am not a christian, yet I'm happy to say 'happy christmas', because for me, it's a social convention, not a religious one. Wishing someone a happy christmas shouldn't offend - there is a duty on the receiver to also be sensitive - and actually, in this country, whether we or anyone else like it or not, we ARE approaching the christmas period. Also, sure - some of the EU laws are rubbish. Yet I would suggest a note of caution in being too critical - for all the problems inherent with them and human rights laws, they have done more good than harm to the majority of people. You're quite right about anti-semitism being around before Hitler. There's a great tradition of it, in fact! We can see such negative stereotypes in older things, like Shakespeare's "Merhcant of Venice", and before. The Jews had genuinely been subject to a whole lot of persecution for hundreds and hundreds of years, historically. Bringing up Kristallnacht etc was purely because of the anniversary, and now is as good a time to remember that these ethnic hatreds etc are baseless and boil up into something very quickly given the right environment of ignorance, hatred, scapegoating etc. Before we get on at the lawmakers and so on - I would urge you to consider the motivations, the original intents, behind them. No-one wants false asylum seekers or terrorists here. No-one sensible wants preferential treatment given to a certain demographic. Also, these things are far from resulting soley from the EU or labour governments. In my view, it's all interlinked with capitalism and globalisation, and the irony is that these things have brought about great positives in some place - yet these themselves have enabled these later issues. For example - we'd not be jetting around the world and so on if it weren't for free trade, we'd not have information sharing and so on as advanced as we do if not for it, we'd not have the internet and everything else. Yet these great advancements have led to things like mass movement of peoples, gross disparities in economical climates, indiscriminate sale of advanced weapon technologies etc. It's all a bit complex, in short, and there's never an easy answer to any of it. nice one.

Bull****.

I expect these things happen because of women being on board, right?

Oh. I sort of thought you were all buddy buddies.

I'm pretty certain 1,000,000 Rwandans, and more, would disagree, as would those who died in Srebrenica, those under Pol Pot's reign, those in the Congo today, thousands in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Iraq... the list goes on. It doesn't need to be a conflict that encompasses the glove to show that the world has not learned. Many people on this board are up to levels as far as 3 on this: http://www.genocidewatch.org/8stages.htm

Why does everyone seek to deviate!!? I'm not judging the Iraq thing in totality, but some of it has been a debacle. History won't recall it that favourably, I'm sure, though there have been small successes. If those behind it truly regard it as a success, in most senses of the word, it wouldn't surprise me, because they are exactly the kind of people who don't give a **** about loss of life - particularly loss of life of those from other countries, or, worse, those that don't directly impact on them.

Again, that's not my point. In pragmatic terms, it makes much sense to consider them allies politically and economically. Also, to be fair, some of them do learn, but as a power, I guess you need to be slapped before you truly do. These decisions weren't easy, though, I'm well aware. It's more like.. WW1 generals, going by the proscribed doctrine rather than adapting to the self-evident new conditions of war. That was such a massive thing that thinking HAD to change. I hope the West doesn't need a slap of that magnitude. My main point was to draw a parallel with the state of play at the moment, and the reminder about Kristallnacht, how racial hate starts, where it can lead etc. Just wanted to point out that rememberance day is not just about the soldiers, but about the innocent victims to - and it's a good time to reflect on history and remember. Remembering is a pointless and does not respect to those who have laid down their lives if we don't seek to learn the lessons their blood was spilled for.

Sorry, I can't really justify it with 3 people. We had 5 the other day and still ****ed off home. I think you need 6 as a very minimum. Otherwise it's just ****.

I was going to turn up, but to be honest, if it's 5 or whatever, I can't really say it's worth much. I want to, but I've got to go out in a bit and go straight to footie if it's on, so if I have to make a decision now, it doesn't look great..

This isn't an anti-America rant. It's more about letting boundaries of prejudice etc slip, and lessons of history. I'm glad the US came into WW2, but that war was, in my view, about defending people, not subjugating them, at least from our point of view. Sure, there would have been hidden agendas, but I mention the Philippine thing in the same breath as Vietnam, not WW2. As much as anything else, my point was that, regardless of whether or not it was 'right' to go into Iraq, they've conducted it in a way that has led to it being another 'Nam. It seems clear to me, at least, that they could have taken what they learned in the 60's and 70's about local populations, guerilla opposition, insurgency and so on and implemented it in a better, more sensitive way. For example, that Abu Ghraib **** should never have happened. granted, it's the acts of individuals and not the whole - but the whole had to be more accountable.

Either way, I think this thread should probably be kept free of debate if it's not meant for ir. Start a new thread for this?

Regardless of my opinion on each conflict, I will always say that the indivuals who have laid down their lives - whether unwillingly as victims, or for heros - for their country, family, even their comrades - are owed nothing but respect.

If you're not interested, don't read the following, and don't bother to comment. As we remember those who have died in wars, don't forget the victims of genocides throughout history. Across the evening of the 9th November and into the 10th, 1938, Nazi's rampaged through the streets of Germany, burning, smashing, destroying all things Jewish, murdering 90, burning 200 Synagogues. Most normal Germans, most of whom were uncomfortable with events, including police and fire crews, looked on and did nothing, not wanting to get involved or risk the Nazi's ire. "Indifference is the first step towards endangering essential values.... xenophobia, racism and anti-Semitism must never be given an opportunity in Europe again." - Angela Merkel. Take note, racist idiots, xenophobes and those who think that those against the above are just "PC gone mad". Some political correctness is over the top, and it's a stupid term anyway. The fact of the matter is that ignorance can escalate, so some try to draw a line to ensure it doesn't, even over what seems innocent enough. Those who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. We've seen the Americans do it in Iraq, after Vietnam - and despite many thinking that Vietnam was the first time they f*cked up, you'd be wrong. Even as a fledgling nation, the US did something very similar in the Philippines. This led to many civilian deaths, had suspect motivations and means, and despite superior US military power, and sometimes brutal suppression of local people (including cases of shooting any male over ten in the vicinity), the conflict rumbled on via guerilla warfare for some time after the messy official end. Mark Twain said the following about the conflict "I wanted the American eagle to go screaming into the Pacific ...Why not spread its wings over the Philippines, I asked myself? ... I said to myself, Here are a people who have suffered for three centuries. We can make them as free as ourselves, give them a government and country of their own, put a miniature of the American Constitution afloat in the Pacific, start a brand new republic to take its place among the free nations of the world. It seemed to me a great task to which we had addressed ourselves. But I have thought some more, since then, and I have read carefully the treaty of Paris [which ended the Spanish-American War], and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem. It should, it seems to me, be our pleasure and duty to make those people free, and let them deal with their own domestic questions in their own way. And so I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land." If Mark Twain could see things like this 100 years ago, it is a shame that so many, even in this country, with all our education and freedoms and supposed enlightenment, cannot.

Or Operation Awe (and shock):

Yes, it really would. Nugget, are your mates turning up today? if so, how many? It would be grand if we could know this kind of thing.

Everyone's a c*nt.

Calzaghe. Good knock, by the way. Fought well. Put down in the first after running into a nice shot from Jones, but got back up no problem and bossed it from then on, really. Threw something like 950 punches to Jones's 450, and landed 2% more as well. Says it all. Never sure how much I think boxing is a good sport, but I always enjoy watching Calzaghe.