bridge too far

Some people do things because they're told that that's the way of things and they should adhere to how it's always been. Others think things through and come to a rational decision that the' way of things' isn't necessarily applicable today. If you can't understand that, then you're very narrow minded. As I said earlier, if they'd wanted an all singing, all dancing, traditional wedding, I'd have supported them because it would have been their choice. But, to them, ostentation and tradition are irrelevant to their lives. Her father also completely supports their decision.

Oh dear, you're the one not getting it. I agree it's better if the parents are together BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE MARRIED. And you make no allowances for relationships where there's abuse and violence (such as that poor woman who had her eyes gouged out). You reckon children are still happier when living in that sort of environment? Are you married with children? Take it from one who knows - children are happier in a happy household, whether that's with one or two parents, than they are in a miserable environment. You ask my children.

. Hmmm - let's think about tradition, custom, practice......... because the definition of 'tradition' shows that these three are the same. Once, it was tradition to observe one minute's silence on Armistice Day. Nowadays, people observe one, two or even three minutes' silence for all manner of death and injury. In fact, it's often not even silence any more, but applause. See how tradition gets manipulated to be relevant to the modern world? TDD's OP was about proposing and it developed into the 'tradition' of asking the bride's father for 'permission' to marry. My observation was that such a tradition is based on the assumption that the woman was her father's property (chattel = personal property) and has its roots in dowries etc. So, just like the tradition of the one minute's silence, it's outdated. As it happens, I've had a much greater input, both emotionally and financially, into my daughter's life, health, education, support and well-being than her father ever has (I'm not blaming him BTW since I left him) so you could argue that I've more of a claim to give her away than he has. But she doesn't want to be actually given away and I rather think that's up to her, don't you? There won't be a 'best man' either. My SiL's 13 year old son from his first marriage will simply be by his father's side because that's what they want too. You see, my children are able to see through hype and outdated customs. They make their own minds up about what's important to them and I think that's great.

But that doesn't mean they have to be married though, does it. So your logic dictates that if a child is raised in a single parent family because one of the parents has died, then that child will grow up OK. However if, for whatever reason, the parents decide to live apart, then that child will turn into a little f*cker. You didn't look at your backside after all to see if it was talking, did you. And, FYI, I don't attempt to be cool. I don't attempt to be anything other than myself. I don't even know what 'being cool' means with reference to my thoughts and actions.

Phwoar! That Sam Bird (Merc reserve driver) is very, very tasty!

What's that got to do with marriage? And what about widowed parents - are their children going to turn into littl f*ckers?

Phil, I never said that any father these days would view his daughter as a chattel. But that's where the tradition arises from - from the days of arranged marriages and dowries. Just Google 'marriage' and you'll see for yourself where the traditions, customs and practices come from. I don't hold with tradition but I do hold with the idea of respecting the wishes of the two main players even if it means I bite my tongue on occasions. I don't respect the institution of marriage because it's archaic, especially since so many marriages end in divorce these days. But if my daughter chooses to get married, my love for her overrides any cynicism I have about the institution. I just keep my thoughts to myself. It's an occasion and if the two people taking part want tradition then that's up to them. But no-one should feel obliged to celebrate their marriage in a particular way, because others say it's traditional. And it certainly should not be a competition to see who can put on the best display. It's a private matter, as is a proposal. And my future SiL's family and my family won't be any closer because of a ceremony. We've already been very close over the years because of the difficulties they've endured in the past and I can't see that a ceremony would somehow intensify that relationship at all. Apart from having to book the church and the reception venue, my daughter's spent hardly any time at all in arranging things. After all, they only got engaged at Christmas. They've got other (probably more important) things to think about such as their work, and their daughter. They'd rather also spend their time and money on doing up their house. And that's their choice - so we all respect that.

And I reckon the FL will apply further penalties if they somehow avoid relegation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17714715

Are you sure? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereavement_in_Judaism

I didn't know that, Dune. What happens to Jews then? Not that I'll have any real say in the matter as I'll be dead, but my family know I don't want a 'traditional' funeral in the sense of any sort of service. I don't want to be cremated. When her husband died, my friend arranged for him to have a woodland burial and I think this is a nice idea.

I don't have any conventional 'faith', that's true. I don't think I'm superior to anyone else at all but I am confident in my views on things. Most people are, else how could anyone argue their point of view? But one thing I do hold a view on is the right of anyone to hold an alternative point of view. That doesn't mean I respect their point of view, merely their right to hold such a point of view. I'm always happy to be persuaded that I'm wrong and often I am. And, in the case of family weddings, funerals etc. I happen to think that the wishes of main players are to be supported over and above my own wishes, even if I don't actually believe those things myself. But that's because I love those people.

Not if it's illegal. I think in the old days bodies were just burned on funeral pyres. And the Saxons or Vikings used to bury people. We went to Sutton Hoo in Norfolk last year where there is an Anglo-Saxon burial pit. So cremations and burials have been around since time immemorial. But that doesn't qualify as tradition as there's no legal alternative.

Saying it twice doesn't add weight to your statement.

And Bristol C are winning too

Because it's illegal?

How the **** are funerals 'traditional'? We all have to be buried / cremated when we die.

Yes - don't we all? It would be very sad if we didn't believe in what we spouted though. I expect you do - it would be hypocritical not too, wouldn't it.

Check your backside will you? If any of my children had wanted a very traditional wedding and wanted to spend loads of money lining the pockets of florists, dressmakers, etc. etc. I would have helped them out. Inwardly I would have been a tad disappointed, but loving mother that I am, I would have gone along with their wishes for their day. My feelings about such things are immaterial. It's got nothing to do with how I feel at all. I've never foisted my opinions on them or, indeed, on anyone here. "But each to their own eh? " = me a few posts ago. And I haven't 'hijacked' the thread. I debated, initially with Phil, about the pros and cons of proposing. You, mainly, chose to expand the debate, you troll.

Because he wanted to do that. She'll also be holding her 3 year old daughter's hand - not very traditional really. No speeches and there's nothing inherently traditional about toasting people if that's what they've decided to do. No presents because they've been living together for 10 years so they've got what they need. I don't know if anyone will turn up with confetti - a lot of churches don't allow it these days anyway. It will be all about celebrating the happiness of a couple who have chosen to get married, having overcome huge difficulties that I don't propose to share on here. For that, and that alone, we'll all be delighted to join in their happiness. But if they'd decided to just carry on living together, well we'd all be equally happy to celebrate that too. Happiness outshines posh frocks, colour co-ordinated flowers and napkins and corny speeches any day of the week IMO

I actually think marriage is a traditional hypocrisy but I understand that many don't and I respect their right to hold that view. Two of my children have chosen to get married already but chose not to have church weddings as they don't subscribe to any religion. So they had civil weddings with a registrar present. People dressed according to how they felt. Some people like dressing up - others don't. I don't recall any hoodies but that would be because those guests chose not to wear them (in both cases it was a blisteringly hot day so hoodies wouldn't have been a good idea anyway). This forthcoming wedding IS in a church because they're both committed Christians. Apart from singing with a rock band, they regularly play in a band at church services and my SiL teaches guitar to younger members of the church. It matters to them to get married in church and, again, given that they're free thinking adults, I respect their right to make that choice and support them accordingly. All my children chose to live with their respective partners before they got married. I respected their right (as adults) to do that. They chose to get married. I respected their right to do so and I wouldn't have dreamed of upsetting them by not attending their weddings. But if they'd decided not to get married, I would have gone along with that too. After all, I've been living with my partner for 13 years now. He's single, I'm divorced but neither of us feel any need to get married - we're happy as we are. But it's true to say that, generally, I don't believe in tradition. We evolve.

Both daughters had fathers present at their weddings. My youngest daughter's father was too ill to cope with the 'giving away' bit but they didn't want that anyway. My eldest daughter will walk up the aisle with her father but that's it. Nothing to do with ME wanting to be cool etc. It's her wedding and she and her husband-to-be made this decision themselves - nothing to do with me. Oh and I am funding the wedding to the same degree as her father. Maybe I should 'give her away'?

Hmm not exactly girl power. More like respecting each party to the marriage as equal individuals, I'd say.

Bollix to tradition and as for politeness, courtesy and respect presumably a bloke should ask his own father if it's OK to get married and a girl should ask her future father-in-law if she can marry his son? Utter tosh - reduces females to chattels. No-one is anyone's possession to 'give away' FFS

I'm not sure I understand the 'ask the Dad' bit TBH. When your daughters are adults and probably earning more than their fathers, it seems a bit insulting to ask a dad for permission to propose. Especially when the couple have been living together for an age. To me, it implies that the father 'owns' the daughter. Somewhat Victorian I'd venture to suggest.