bridge too far

I used to hitch hike regularly (with my then b/f) from Southampton to London when I was a student. On two consecutive weekends, we got a lift from the same mad Italian in a Fiat. What are the odds on that (the same guy - not an Italian being mad or driving a Fiat). On another occasion, we went to Great Yarmouth by train but couldn't afford the fare back so we hitched. A taxi stopped and we said 'uh oh we can't afford a taxi fare'. It turned out he was returning TO OUR PART OF LONDON from a fare and just wanted company for the journey! Once my friend and I hitch-hike raced a couple of other girls down to Bournemouth (when we were in the 6th form). We got picked up by an oldish Polish man. When we asked him to drop us, he said 'you can't get out'. !!!!! However, it turned out he'd got child locks on the door and we had misunderstood him. I am not casting aspertions on Polish men BTW.

And that's where you are so very wrong. The public sector capital programme is flourishing and will continue to be so, given that the government has brought forward future programmes. I have been in the Midlands early this week looking at a number of Building Schools for the Future projects underway in one council. I am comparing salaries of those professions engaged in public sector contracts. So sorry to prove you wrong yet again.

It is also slightly disingenous to compare 'average' public and private sector pay. In the public sector, most employees have to have a reasonable standard of education and this will be reflected in their salaries. In the private sector, average wages will be deflated by the very low pay of the less well educated (I'm thinking McDonalds, building trades labourers, some unskilled shop workers, etc.) Here's an example of pay comparison: A local government architect, working on schools projects would earn somewhere between £32-40K. A private practice architect working on schools projects would earn over £45K. An NHS project manager, working on a £100m hospital development, would earn around £45K. A construction project manager working on a £100m development would earn roughly £60K plus car plus health insurance.

If we all worked for the private sector who on earth would teach your kids, nurse your old parents, clean your streets, collect your rubbish etc. etc. etc?

GPs are 'private' contractors to the NHS. As we know, some clinical consultants, working for the NHS, also undertake private work. So it's a bit disingenuous to classify them as 'public sector employees'.

This is the most recent article I found on Google about local councils' Chief Executives pay. As the article states, these CEs have responsibility for thousands of staff and a budget that runs into millions. Their average salary at the time of publication was £103K. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/sep/25/10 This article shows the salaries for executives in the FTSE 100 - again it's the most up to date I could find: http://www.hrmguide.co.uk/rewards/fat_cat.htm Both articles are from 2002 so salaries are compared realistically. Southampton City Council employs 9,000 people and, in 2006, had a budget of £100 million. EMI has 5,500 employees. I can't find what EMI's budget is. SCC CE earns £150,000 p.a. EMI Executive earned over £10million in 2002. No doubt someone will come back and say 'ah but EMI makes profits'. However, councils can't make profit. In terms of budgetary and workforce management, the council CE earns a tenth of the private sector CE for greater responsiblity.

Health professionals are, of course, consultant surgeons and physicians and General Practitioners. Not 'pen pushers'. However, many consultants (medical) are also clinical managers and, mistakenly, classified as pen pushers whereas what they actually do is to 'manage' as well as practise medicine.

No, I don't. Because there will always be a need for public services, and even more so when people are losing their jobs and houses. But there will be significant job losses in the sector for sure. Steve - your figures were for 3 months = c.45K a month. Not hundreds of thousands in a month as was claimed.

But significantly lower wages. No huge mega-millions golden handshakes in the public sector. I've just been looking through the Health Service Journal and a 'Modern Matron' - in charge of nursing in an acute hospital can earn as little as £30K. A Modern Matron will have many skills (apart from nursing) that can transfer into the private sector where he / she would earn substantially more than that paltry sum.

All in the private sector?

The National Audit office. HTH Also we are appointed as a result of a competitive tendering process. Councils have to sub-contract because the middle classes bleat on about how many public sector workers there are. So about 15-20 years ago, the public sector workforce was cut and private consultants (the same people in reality) were employed. The argument is that the councils etc are paying only for actual time spent on the work with no on-costs. In other words the councils don't have to pay for sick leave, holiday leave, maternity leave, NI, down-time etc. (I'm sure I've made this point elsewhere in recent days :confused:). The counter-argument is that the councils have to spend more on 'expertise' than they would have done if those folk were employed by the councils.

You mean the refuse collector walks up and down your drive 3 times instead of once? You need 3 street lamps to light up the road near your house instead of one? Your house might get broken into or burned down 3 times in a night instead of once? Cripes :shock:

Dumbo! I charge them an agreed rate for the work I do for them. If I'm not doing work for them, I don't charge them If I've got a quiet day - being my own boss - I'll sit here undertaking my other quest in life which is to try to explain how some things work in the field that I know, so that people understand what really happens rather than believe the crap some people peddle.

So the only viable alternative is for us all to do our own thing? The very point I'm making is that we have to have local government, like it or not, and, unless we're prepared to offer an alternative solution, all we can do is 'suffer' to some extent and vote out incumbent councillors if we don't like the way things are being managed. As I highlighted above, when a recent report I did highlighted failures on behalf of senior executives in one council department, those executives were called to account by the local councillors and were sacked.

Au contraire! My job is to work with councils to ENSURE that they are getting VfM - it's what I do! If they are not getting VfM, I have to report that to the Audit Commission. Officers and very senior executives have lost their jobs as a result of Audit reports. When I worked as a Project Manager for the NHS, it was the norm to work a 12 hour day and at weekends. It's one of the reasons I left. I am a partner in the company I now work for BTW.

Macey's parade I think. My daughter is staying with friends in NY as we speak and she says it's bloody cold there! She's wrapping my baby granddaughter in layers and layers and taking her to the Macey's parade.

However, politicians are advised by Civil Servants many of whom HAVE worked in the commercial sector (although the commercial sector doesn't really smell of roses right now). Politicians appraise options presented to them by their Civil Servants and make decisions accordingly. You don't have to be good at Maths to understand Economics. Economics is more about cause and effect and is based, in part, on philosophical standpoints. That's why economists never agree. Philosophy rarely comes into Maths (although my son had to study Maths Philosophy whilst doing his Philosophy degree :confused:)

Recent ones: Oldham council = 850 Wolverhampton = 300 Glasgow = 400 all announced in the last month or so You didn't answer my question 'why not privatise local councils and their services'. It was a rhetorical question, I grant you, but you still didn't answer it. If local services were all privatised, some of them might go bust I'll grant you. But - for a start - would competition necessarily be implemented? If it was, then yes, some providers would go bust. But in reality, you'd get the big facilities boys like HBOS, Capita etc taking over and you can bet your bottom dollar you'd end up paying more. Once upon a time, residential care was provided by councils. Then it was part-privatised. Now a lot of private nursing homes have gone out of business (I think there was one in Southampton only recently). What would you propose to replace services no longer viable because a private contractor deems it so? Or would you just leave elderly people, or children at risk?

'salright sex-pot (as if)

Excellent article here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/27/health-longtermcare

Oh I rather think they do, subversively Along with 'a dose of recession will do us all good' as opined by the Tory Health spokesman (Andrew Lansley I believe).

Why not?

OMG! I tell you, I'm much less stressed and far better rewarded by working in the private sector. I wish I could afford to work for the public sector again. But then I wouldn't be able to just drift out of the office to meet my man (who has similarly 'gone missing') for a spot of lunch in our respective companies' time, would I? The joys of being in the private sector!

Not in care homes. You really don't know much about this, I think. Private care homes used to charge an all-in fee per week that covered nursing and personal care. I can't be arsed to google yet another topic but, IIRC, about 2 years ago the free nursing care IN CARE HOMES was introduced. But I have http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/IntegratedCare/NHSfundednursingcare/DH_4070915 This was implemented in 2001. When my mother went into her care home last week, it was made quite clear to us that we would be billed for her personal care but the NHS would be billed for any nursing care she might require in future. Of course nursing care is free in hospital. But this wasn't the case in residential care homes until comparitively recently.

Bognor - it is not a crusade. I am no longer employed by the public sector, although the work I do is for local government, the NHS, housing associations, police forces etc. Many, many public sector employees work in that sector, not for the money, (because the average public sector worker wage is less than the average comparitive private sector wage)*, but because some people are other than self-serving and do so out of a sense of making a contribution. As do the police, the military etc. etc. I was surprised (or was I) to see how much pensions are for the police, fire service, military but, like nurses and other front-line staff, I guess that's because of the risk factor. Although, of course, nurses get a much lower percentage as I demonstrated earlier. Defined benefit schemes in the public sector are paid out of current contributions. The NHS Pension fund, for example, receives contributions from current workers (and NHS trusts) and these are used on a current-time basis to pay out to pensioners. But, as I said just now, let's all stop paying any taxes at all and fund all our needs ourselves. Then we can't moan if we feel we're paying too much, can we. Instead, we can line the pockets of insurers 'just in case' we need a policeman, fireman, doctor or refuse collector. Which will be the best value for money I wonder. * For Example: when I was a project manager on a £100m hospital development scheme, I was negotiating with and managing the contractor's project manager who was on double the salary I was getting. IT personnel in the NHS get a fraction of what they could get in the private sector. Just two examples, but there are many more out there.