Frank's cousin

... Becouse you are underestimating what varying the demographics wnat from their 'match day experience' - we accomodate this now, the 'ard lads in the NOtham that want cheap seats, stand and cheap beer, the familiy enclosures, and the psudo middleclass, 40somethings like with bad back that wants the best view and seat - which is why I always went for teh the Itchin centre most expensive ST rather than the cheaper Northam. The hypothesis of what I have spent countless posts trying to get acorss is IF we get to the point where demand is such that you could charge the 'Itchen rate' thorughout the ground and still sell out, you are then in a position where expansion would allow INCREASE revenue AND/BUT allow for reintroduction of a broader pricing band. There are many innovativ pricing models that to date football has not considered, and yes there are certain rules regarding discounts etc, but in part its mosty restricted because of the need to ensure ST prices remain the best value over a season - However there ARE alternative approaches that can be looked at ...IN FUTURE

Slightly dismissive of what was at the time a very innovative pricing model... someone of your experience , intellect and knowledge should surely not let the poor service crapy seats and flight delays associated with EJ, cloud yor judgement of a good pricing model? We are not talking about NC being willing to compromise the integrity of the 'brand' through cheaper service or poorer product, but about ensuring (potentially in the future subject to demand real or potential) that the club can provide seats to those that want them at a price that is appropriate

And I have not disagreed with any of that. I do however agree with those that its possible to INCREASE demand, to create it through quality of product, appropriate marketing and appropriate pricing - we have not done that these last few years an only NC knows the reasons why, but it would certainly be a consideration IF a feasibilty assessment were to be made about expansion in the future We al know that football crowd are notoriously fickle at most clubs, with there being a large contingent of prem onlys who are more often than not in a demographic that is better off... Capacity increase means we dont have to simply shift towards that demographic, but can accomodate all...

Problem is Charlie, that the 'opposition' are quiterightly suggesting that selling 38k at a rate that does not add significantly to to revenue than 32k at a higher rate is a false economy given the cost of creeating those extra seats etc... logical if looked at in that simple way Deamnd can be looked at in a number of ways - what is the actual demand based on who wants to go and can afford to go, and the potential demand based on who wants to go but cant afford to go So increasd capacity allows you the luxury of developing a pricing model that ensures you can create at least some seats to bring in those who cant afford the higher price created by limited supply at a smaller stadium. IF THERE IS SUCH A SITUATION IN THE FUTURE I would not be surprised to see some innovative club introduce a 'easyJet' pricing model in future for certain games and parts of the ground. We have seen empty seats at many prem clubs of late so there are many factors to consider, but to dismiss the ideas simply based on the current demand seems if anything naive

Yes agreed that I have 'suggested 3000-5000 - surely it was clear this was a hyperthetical number to illustrate a point - if that was not clear, then aplogies, but it was... eg IF that were the case it would drive teh rest etc This is the same point that Prof Fry is constesting. Its tricky to explain, so hear me out: we are not talkig about incentivising to fill empty seats - we are not doing that now, but we still have kids/OAP?famly concessions already and no demand to fll the ground. I am talking about a Hyperthetical situation ...in the FUTURE, where we dont need to offer concessions or a broad ticket price because we can easily fill 32k at £40+ a seat... Under those circumstance syou have disenfranchised many that cant afford that etc. Increased capacity then provides you with teh opportunity to reintroduce greater flexibilty in pricing to braoden the demographic...for me its a simple model. Its not increased capacity driving demand, the demand is already assumed to be there, the increased capacity mere provides the way of capturing the £££ from a broader demographic.

'I want anew stadium of 50K because it would make us out to be a bigger club and I want it now and its does not matter how we pay for it or if we are relagted' I am sure there are a couple you actually do think like that, but te trouble with some thos eso opposed to this discussion, is that you seem to think we ALL think like that. For my part I am talking about a hyperthetical situation where demand is far greater than capacity and where as a result teh club has been able to increase prices significantly without compromising on the gate. Expansion under those terms does allow for greater flexibilty and a broader demographic with increased numbers spending more cash - if te funding were appropriate and sensible it would be an obvious decison... That's my take - so is there anything illiogical about that 'hypertthetical situation'? The only 'realism' issue is that such plans take years to establish against a backdrop of ever spiraling construction costs - so any business worth its salt will have an ellement of long term future planning and I would expect that what NC has been talking about is that - the fact that as a club he wont rule anything out because its vital that a buisness considers the long term.... again what is illogical in that?

Again to illustrate: 32K - max capacity max demand, ST waiting list, 3000-5000 regular not able to get tickets or afford them as max price for all seats possible - means reduced RANGE of ticket price, less concessions, OAPs, kids all pay full price say £45-£35, club is happy, better demographic, richer folk spending loadsa money in the concorses = Total match day income of £X 46K - same demand - everyone can fit it who wants to go, so you, but some issues reamin on affordabilty - you can now offer kids.OAP concessions as wel as increase the range from top seats with benefits for £50 to £30 = maybe 8000 more on the gate + 8000 more spending in the concourses = total match day income of £X++ Of course it depends on demand, but given how the demographic of football fans has shifted in part because of affordabilty, its not beyond the realms of what is rational to consider that greater capacity through greater pricing flexibilty will encourage a broader demographic?

Thinnk the problem is some of you dont understand the concept of 'relative'. I cant read read NC's mind on this and if the strategy employed follows the current one, then over the next couple of seasons we could see more of teh same with a simple price hike that maxs out the revenue per occupied seat of SMS, based on teh oincreased potential demand... and whilst that demand exists, some will (and have) argued that is the sensinsible way to do it. - form a purely economic perspectice if there is NO option/choice/feasilibilty of doing anything but this, then that would be sensible. However, IF (a big IF, please note) we have a some relative success and demand increases to the point where we sell out WITHOUT needing to make and reductions/concessions at a higher price point and thus restrict access to many core fans/social groups, then it becomes an obvious consideration if teh figures stack up.. that is all anyone is suggesting. But you can make a case for a MODEL that a larger capacity, (if balanced against the development costs) DOES allow a broader spectrum of price band RELATIVE to the max price at SMS, maintaining the average price per seat but offering both better and more expensive seats + cheaper ones (relative to the max price at SMS) - and importantly because such a decision can only driven by commercial demand, greater numbers is better for other commercial revenue streams. Have we or wil we ever reach the required level of demand? Who knows.. But there IS logic in being able to offer more fans a choice and attract greter numbers through flexible pricing models that capacity allows you to do. Why has he not done it right now? Why have we not filled SMS with kids deals and OAPs with bigger discounts? I dont know the answer, but suspect it because a) they have not needed to given the current backing from the Liebherrs, and b) its possible that thay have been looking at the data to assess what demand there is at this price point for this level of product. Afterall, if they offer huge discounts in NPC then fans react to the BIGGER jump when promoted - just look at the resentment last season when prices were announced, despite the fact that there was not much difference between the and the previous ticket prices in the Championship - just looked like a big hike because of teh huge iscounts in L1....Possibly other reasons to, but just because this has not been a policy in league one and the NPC does not mean it COULD not change if demand/capacity balance were shifted in future. Ticket pricing is always a delicate balancing act - the club wants max revenue - max sales, but know there will be a ceiling of what fans are willing to pay - they also know that they will be willing to pay more for better product in a top league but this will shift the demographic of the fans through the gate towards the more affluent - who spends mores so great, so why bother with the fans who cant afford a £800 ST, if you can sell 25k of them at that price ? (please not I am NOT saying we will, just using it to illustrate a point) ...wait for it... because i you have capacity to do so, without compromising revenue in fact increasing it, you MIGHT be able to sell 25K STs at £800 and another 8K at £650 and a load at £450... YES this is a simplistic assessment, but surely its clear that capacity provides flexibility dependent on demand. All you need is a prodct that is of high enough quality consistently and you max the demand - would we need major expansion if Saints were regularly top 6 or 7 in the prem? I have no idea, no one on here does, depends on a large number of factors, but that does not make the concept any less valid for hyperthetical discussion.

Yes, but if that was the case be more cost effctive just to find a site to build a hotel... not a new stadium. All commercial opportunities will be explored, we know that. Ticket pricing will be looked at and likely to go up a bit as demand is higher.. expansion? who knows, could be good if funding available, could we fill it? Depends on product/success.... Lets be honest though as well, desire for stadium expansion is also driven by ego - it says 'biger club' -etc, and I am sure NC is not immune to that either - Thing is it gets more expensive year on year so my question is more to the fans... do we have enough who will go to make it a possibility? We all like to lord it up over other clubs about size etc/fan base, but the truth may be we different to our expectations. All I would say is I dont know what's possible, but economically it would make sense if we could for obvious reasons.

Corrected it for those whose head it may pass over

Problem is revenues for hotels can be large but margins can be tight - and would you stay in one if visting Southamption attached to a ffotball stadium opposite a gravel works?

Maybe there's like some EU grant, like Farmer scam that NC knows about, where they pay us a hudge wedge to keep em empty?

What the Mackems do is of no concern to me. I'm usually more of a fence sitter than a bandwagon jumper...usually

Never mentioned Snderland once... you are mistaking me for someone else

If you're drinking that sheidt, you dont deserve to Odds are it will be over tomorrow, if not the week after... nowt we can do but believe and party

Its just a discussion Turkish... nothing to see here, no one getting irritated or unpleasent.

Nah... personnaly I believe we need 80K, 40k for fans leaving plenty of room to accommodate Prof. Fry's ego

Keep em comming - with every sentence you erode any possible belief in your intellect. I have no idea how clever or otherwise you really are, because if left to interpreting that form your posts, its bordering on idiot... You have no idea how clever or otherwise I am, but it obviously makes you feel better to assume its low... you can have that on me.

You just dont get it do you... I never said fans are not worried about the price of a ticket, I said they are not demanding cheaper ones - there is an important and subtle difference - what fans want when a club has success and tickets are at a premium is access to a ticket. Access is possible either through appropriate capacity or through a pricing policy that does not exclude certain social groups. HYPERTHETICALLY, IF demand is very high (based on reasonable assumptions that if we do reasonably OK in the next coupe of seasons) we will sell out more frequently, access will be restricted both due to capacity AND a minimum price that excludes some fans... So how do you make that judgement call? You look at the total revenue per seat - in a larger stadium you can have a larger range - some higher priced seats, some lower, than if we were maxing out at 32k - STILL yielding a greater return... IF there is sufficient demand - Know one knows if there will be, as for most the premise for expansion ASSUMES there would be. Yes some have suggested that demand can be created, which may or may not be possible, others have suggested that long term planning should include this now as rising costs of infrastructure development mean ift may be more cost effctive to do this sooner rather than later, even if it meant 8k empty seats for several years (MK DONS did exactly that, knowing it would be cheaper in the long term, but that it woudl take success and maybe 20 years before they attract those numbers) ... what is so irrational about discussing such options??

You make yourself look a bigger feckin arsehole with every post... its not about accepting various opinions - this began with your condesending, patonising BS grandstanding about your vastly superior economic expertise, and trying to belittle anyone who was 'enthusiasic' about the concept. Oh and the comment on enjoying yourself was not in reference to internet message boards - the fact that you seem make that link suggests you need to get more... Arse aching drivel it may be, but then I dont come on here pretending to be a prize winning journo known for my prose, so what the feck do you expect? Pulitzer prize winning insight? SO DONT FECKIN READ IT, and DONT respond if it upsets your fragile ego so much... although for one so intellectually gifted, I would have though you would be above such trivial musings.... see thats what this is .. triaval musings, thoughts, ideas, not indepth analysis of the feasibilty or level of realism in Saints path to the Champions league... if you are too sensitive for this, just f uck off and do something else more enjoyable for you.

True... what he does however fail to grasp (in his infinite economic wisdom) is that 99.999% of fans are not somehow desperate for cheaper tickets (which will not happen) nor does he grasp the difference that when talking about 'cheaper seats' we are talking relative to the maximum ticket price in either option. I just cant work the miserable fecker's gripe with discussing a hyperthetical situation. NC will look to max revenue - that is what its ultimately about - If a complex feasibilty assessment demonstartes greater revenues from a larger capacity within an affordable funding approach. Its not been stated before because for most its staing the bleeding obvious, but its not about the price on the ticket. There are always ST prices, Concessions etc, so any analysis they will do will be based on average revenue genearted per seat on a match day (average ticket spend, average drinks, food, program) etc. If demand for tickets is high, then the price may well go up....what he still fails to acknowledge is that with larger capacity the average revenue generated per occupied seat can go up - and you acn have a broader RANGE - of prices, whilst maintaining a higher revenue per seat level.... but it seems he is unwilling to even entertain alternative opinion, let alone discuss it with common sense... stubborn miserable fecker.

WTF..? 'Sunshine' - next you'll be caling me 'treacle' and and singing Knees up Mother brown...... hilarious. Have you not 'read and understood' a single aspect of context in which this discussion is happening? The fact that its currently hyperthetical? The fact that it requires success and consistent success and high quality product to drive demand? Would you not say that is a reasonable assumption? I doubt we will sell 20K season tickets next season - our peak has been 25K in 2004/5 when IT WAS not possible to just stroll up and guarrantees a ticket at 2/3s o the games for a side that was failing to push on from its promising 2003 season.... it took 4 years at SMS to get to that level through...relative success of a cup final defeat and 8th place finish in 2003. I suggest that even if we emulated that iwithin 2-3 years we might finally get to 25K STs.. It may be quicker, we shall see and given where we were 3 years ago and the growth we have seen, we'll see what happens.... but this discussion is about what happens if we do? What are the options - no one on here has done any feasibilty study, merely chewing the fat of a topic that for most fans who relish aspiration and ambition is ...wait for it,...enjoyable, remember that do you, fun, enjoyment? Or are you one of those miserable feckers too fecked off with 'foam hands' to enjoy seeing kids want to be saints fans, or encouraging new one or converting occasionals to regulars? A Man U ticket in a 45 k seater WILL cost the same as a £32 if the there has been sufficient growth in demand due to success, value, product - Feck it could even be more as the NEED to expand will be on the back of cosnistent success FFS.. Of course its IFs, Buts and Maybes, and it may be impossible, we could find that we are a small two bit club that is never going to get more than 30K average even if top 6 in the prem every year - but thats not frickin point of this discussion...and thats what you seem too stubborn, to see... probably because your view is obscured by your secret fetish for waving foam hands ...sunshine... or more likely because you just like being a miserable sod and ****ing on the parade of those enjoying a hyperthetical discussion about the POTENTIAL of the club.... ... so sunshine, when was the last time you enjoyed yourself? (and I'm talking in the company of others)... Jeez

Option one - 32 k max - in order to achieve a maximum revenue - supply and demand will dictate your ticket price - if successful we could arguably get to a stage where the club could remove concessions, discounts and sell all tickets at say £40 to max revenue...with me? - so the club benefits from restricted supply by not having to discount or make any offers. There is a problem with this approach though as its short termist - you disenfranchise a large core element of potential support and the next generation of fans - great for the short term, but blinkered for the long term. Option Two - 46k max - top games same problem - demand will allow you to sell all at a high price - no benefit to average fan, but benefit to club as it follows laws of S+D to max revenue, BUT for unfashionable games capacity may allow a better pricing band, and offers - which yes benefits fans, but also the club in that extra bodies spend more within the other commercial outlets which have a high margin - whilst many fans are still ****ed off that they cant get tickets for big games, they can at least get tickets to the less attractive fixtures - we are not talking about cheaper tickets than we pay NOW, but about flexibilty to provide deals when apropriate to do so, as capacity allows it. If we are doing well, have an attractive sucssful product option 2 will always provide greater revenues than option 1 - if playing poorly and offering nothing, then naturaly option 1 has less risk By 'Cheaper tickets' no one is talking about eveyone getting in for £10 - we are talking about some games having tickets that are available at £30-£35 and concessions for kids and oldies etc, others would be sell outs at £45. In stead of further patronising BS, if you see a flawed logic in the above, why not respond with a decent explanation instead of your usual dismissive clap trap?

Good points - I have no idea if we would achieve a 40K + average, depends on alot of factors as you suggest, but the irony is that for all those that cpmplained about the 'lack of ambition' under the previous regime, when we have a CEO that shows some, even if a little premature and 'pie in the sky' we get the same old whinging, patronizing crowd complaining - and worse still criticising others for enjoyig the feelgood factor/dreams... I sometimes wonder why these folk bother to post at all apart from to wind people up... they seem so miserable with life, let alone supporting saints...