Frank's cousin

Once a cock...always a cock I guess.... If my explanation was simplistic, its because you come across as a simpleton, who makes sweeping assumption and is obviously lacking in self awareness, so thought this would help you out.

That's why I suggested stick it all on red... high risk but 100% return in 24 hours, show me any other plan that will give you that returen

All to do with personality as well though - Our Nige is just a sort of decent down to earth bloke so the nigelisms seem to just work - we might laugh at his standard cliches, but they still make you feel good about things - it is infectious. ...Trouble is all those serious suits with their business speak just sound like a bunch of cocks - most because they are all so far up their own a holes...

NO this is not correect - if you read the posts carefully what expansion allows is a more flexibilty - its been said on numerous occasions - this can come in many forms and is regulated by supply and demand - you look at the 'gold games' games where demand is high and its all £45 a ticket, you look at so called brinze games and provide a lower max but also a spread with cheap kids deals available by certain deadlines - When this is done, you add up the total and discount that for STs so they always get the best deal - its not rocket science - If the model/forecast cmbined with all the other aspects of a feasibility study + feedback on appropriate marketing shows an overall revenue advantage, its worth considering. Of course it all depends on the source and cost associated with any funding - and that no one has a clue about - high interest loans and its a no go - low interset longer term owner funding and its possible as this does not impact on funding for on the field activities. I just found your blank dismissal of the discussion rather crude - and your assumptions that no one on here understands the principles, difficulties and requirements for a go decision discourteous at best. Even those that are pure unadulterated dreamers, that view this with a pure sense of naive excitement and enjoy NCs positive aspirations should not be dismissed, afterall as said before, we should all be dreamers, it what keeps fans going week in week out during the darkest days and makes us enjoy the better moments so much more.... not sure why so grouchy about it?

Ok putting to bed an personal antagonism, and lets assume that the only motivations of those suggesting the discussion is flawed due lack of understanding of teh basic pimciples of economics - so lets start with a fresh, opne exchange of ideas and concerns. I dont think anyone is suggesting for one moment that its suddenly a good idea to expand, get into a huge debt ofr the sake of club fan ego or whatever - I also dont belive anyone is suggesting its simple a case of build it an d they will come - we simply dont know and judging the demand based on 2003/4 is also flawed in that the economic environment has changed and we have also had several years in which the club has been less a priority to those that made up the number in the prem. We also do NOT have a real understanding of what NC is thinking long term, nor what funds would be availble and from what source that is paying for the Staplewood development , let alone a huge investment required for expansion. So its all guess work from both sides, which is fair enough, but also neither side should be dismissed with a simple dimissive comment (or worse) - I apologise to anyone I amy have offended last night - but it was late, tired and emotional etc. But my point is that IF NC truely is looking at the long term AND that the club must be self funding in the mid term, then the obvious issue is how will teh club ensure it is able to compete? How ill sufficient revenues be generated to ensure we reach the spirational targets he has set? It one thing saving on huge transfer fees by bringing in your home deveoped players, its another having the resources to provide wages that are comparable to keep them + providing the level of success that will make them want to stay... all that needs major increases in revenue. So, we can max out on 32k - and do all the usual commercial projects to squeeze out as much as possible form those that attend games and ensure the price is close the the limit of what is acceptable to fans realtive to the quality of the product. But tha in itself raises a roblem in that it dienfranchise many who cant afford it, and we lose a core or potential core of fans simply through lack of opportunity to attend and become hooked - and yes we cant ignore the impact on our 'brand value' nationally, that a larger facility would ensure - if it were filled week in week out with 40K + So I think the two questions are really simple - How would we afford it (with all the usal issues around relegation as well), and if avalable how would we fill it? I dont know teh answer to part 1, but for part 2, IMHO there is a value in having larger capacity as it allows for a more flexible pricing policy and structure determined by demand - Sell our 40K at £45 when Manure are in town, look to get 35 k through deals and offers when Bolton are in town - an extra 8 k or so over the 26-27k we had v Bolton when last in the prem. Yes as a business if theis worked and we increased the ST level, it migh mean that the club could charge a premium for all matches which again disenfranchises some fans, but sadly that is life. We took 50k+ to Wembley for the tin pot - which shows that there is interest if teh locaction, product and event is of high enough quality. How you translate that level of interest into bums on seeat every week is what the strategic business plan is for - feasibilty, forecasts, models or whatever, but its not just about teh sums, but about assessing whether or not having explored all the marketing avenues aavailable this would generate that level of interest consistently and importantly what happens to that level if we were relegated or teh product quality falls. All those pro are merely suggesting that a couple of decent season in the prem would mean its Worthwhile looking at this form a feasibility perspective - and any good business would be doing that earlier rather than later - as NC has suggested he will rule nothing out, and it would not surprize me if this feasibilty assessment os not part of the current plan - it might be low priority right now, but still part of the development plans.

Well ...its interesting when some talk of maximising revenues...as it was not that long ago that a certain ex chaiman invested in a radio station that when purchased had potential for increased advertising revenues, and set up an insurance service, and went on about the quality of the catering in the corpoartes to attact more into the expensive seats... see that's the problem, we dont like non football revenue streams, even if teh investment to set them up is minmal - its a 'distraction' - why many on her and older forums also complained about the 1.6mil a year it cost to run the academy - that gave us bridge, bale, walcott Surman... players sold ye, but players sold for close to 25 mil - they would have rather seem that 1.6 mil dissappear into the pockets of players - so we need to be careful with such business strategies;)

It might appear 'taking the ****' but the rule of law should be upheld - if after the deadline then ship him out - if before then we have to deal with it. Quite simple despite how unpaletable it seems - Its why I cant see what all the fuss is about. Either he got in appeal befor the legal deadline or he did not.

OK thats all fair and well reasoned - but I think there is some confusion with respect to timeframe here. I dont believe even the OP was suggesting tomorrow as a date for getting the spades out. These sort of investment plans take years in planning (literally) especilly given our situation/location etc - even if archtects had plans drawup tomorrow and all duediligence was done, we still would be unlikey to to see an opening befor 2018/19 and thats asuming we would WANT to start planning tomorrow. The irony though in your post (although the logic is sound) is that 'extracting every last penny form fans before such plans are considered' goes against what many fans/customers would expect. Its a cultural thing maybe in football, but many fans dont like the idea that they are being exploited in such a way. Sure its naive to think anything else, but it still makes many uncomfortable, and no business should ignore the opinions of its customers. If we stay up for 3 years and see progress - the quality of the 'product' improve, and demand reach capacity, then I am sure that preliminary conceptual plans amy be made and appropriate feasibilty studies conducted. Until then, fans like nothing more than seeing mocked up archtectual drawings and grandiose staements - its feeds the dream, feeds the excitement and what are football fans but a bunch of dreamers?

True, there has to be sufficient progress in all areas to provide a product of superior quality capable of sustained success to ensure sustained demand at a decent price point - all very logical and no one is suggesting otherwise - just that its a worthwhile discussion bevcause so much else is rasied by it - IF NC is serious in his words, what will he do to ensure we get to that point where expansion could be realistically considered? Thats the interesting part and I dont believe any of us know that right now - step one is the development of Staplewood. If that bares fruit then I for one am looking forward to step 2 whatever that may be.

hey? Nothing to do with ahving a last word... the issues are simple - do we have demand? Y/N, do we have demand at what price point Y/N? Is that price point sustainable and enough to generate increased revenues when the infrastructure development cost is factored in over x years? Y/N, Is the investment requires sustainable if revenues fall such as on relegation etc Y/N - thos eare very simple questions. Its all very well dismissing the concept of expansion, but those suggesting its foolhardy have yet to provide any 'data' to suggest they have the answers either.

And do you believe that any sensible business would carry out infrastructure development without due diligence? Do you belive that NC would sanction such a 'risky startegy' - Do you not think that those who are encouraged by anecdotal quotes, might also be realistic enough to appreciate that due diligence would be necessary? Any infrastructure development is as you say and major investment - but there IS the issue of 'predicting demand' and ensuring the business is set up to service it rather than losing potential revenue whilst you try and catch up with production. How it is funded is a different matter, but given the desire to see a self sustaining club that is competitive (NCs words not mine), its not beyond the realms of possibilty that there is provison in MLs will for such investment... I dont know, but its a thought

You really are pathetic at times.... yes that post was totally sensible - of course that is the logical way to increase revenue.. but it also has a ceiling as individual punters all have their limits and prices and merchandising/food and beverage sales tended to remain static at most games whether we sold out or not when last in the prem. in part because of max capaicty/queues etc, in part because there are only a certain number of folk willing to risk the cruddy pies. I have no idea whether we could regularly get a 40K gate in the prem or not, none whatsoever, and no one is advocating spalshing 60-100mil tomorrow on a new stadum or expansion on the off chance. But why some of you fly off the handle and act all superior simply because some which to discuss the possibilties of this is beyond me. Feckin laughable you sat there going 'how dare they suggest this is again, have they no economic brain, we dont have the fan base blah blah blah' - football has ALWAYs been about dreams and aspirations for your club, without them its pointless. Yes we alll like to assume the club is bigger than the realistic gate receipts suggest and if only we had success we would fill a bigger ground....etc. But whose to say we would not or do you feel that selling out 32K for most weeks when last in the prem was our max possible for all games?

Would you actually care to explain rather that patronise? If research were to show (and you can bet NC would carry out the necessary due diligence way before considering such future plans) that demnd wer there at an appropriate price point, and it was comemrcially viable, there is logic having greater flexibilty in a pricing model available to you. Of course it does not factor in the cost of the infrastructure development - but that is not what is being debated - its a simple case of whether there is actually a need. Would we get a 35 -40k average at a price point that provides a decent surplus? You tell me as you seem to be a 'master' of this economcs malarky.... Jeez...

er no we did not - we 'lost' 18mil over the last 3 years - with the original purchace price of 15 mil being added to that to give 33 mil that has been converted to equity - no differnt form if they had spent 33 mil o buying teh club about to be promoted to the premier league. Increased capacity only equates to increased revenues if you increase attendence - logical and you can increase attendence if the product is better value. Doing teh figures is for accountants, but the principles are straightforward. Even with the additional attraction of the premier league, there is a max sustainable price point in football - when you reach that, as we have seen at other clubs, you get empty seats. Capacity give you more flexibilty in terms of price point - the simple logic (excluding additional overheads for stewarding, policing and services) is simple 30k x £40 = 1.2mil max (but chances are you will never sell 30K at £40 so why not (20k x £30 + 10k x £35 10k x £25 = 1.2 mil - which is more likely... yes these are simple figures, but you get the drift - more fans equals greater spendin shops and concourses Yes this is all potentially pipe dreams, but there is a comercail logic to expansion IF the fans are likely to repsaond to it with at an appropriate price point. I have no idea whether NC was simply placating the media with grandiose statements, whether he belives its possible or not, but if I also dont believ they woudl enteratin such major investment if they had not done their homework - if it happens in teh future, you can bet NC will have done his sums and will make it work -

Ha ha would you care to explain? Of course you can simply increase price in simple supply and demand terms, but this is fooball and there is already a feeling atht the empty seats at various grounds in teh prem is due to simple economics - folk dont have the spare cash at £40+ a ticket - extra capacity means more potential revnue at a lower price point... so what are you laughing at?

... Steve Jobs was a master of ignoring what the market was teling him and developoing technologies that we did not know we would want... its not about predicting demand, but about creating it. Its simple maths. We can not and will not be competitive in any sense in teh PL without cash. ML and NC both stated they want Saints to be self sustainig in the prem in future - its a clear aim. For that you need increased gate receipts - for that you need capacity first - and then a bloody good plan to ensure you can fill it. The problem will be if we are struggling a bit on the pitch for a few years, all thos 'want it now' types who dont have the patience for teh infrastructure investment to yield results and start saying we should have spent that 15 mil on players and wages, not teh academy, and the same with any future satdium investment ... quickly forgetting that, that is exactly what Portsmuff did....

Forgetting about the relative level of realsim etc for a moment, there are two seperat issues at stake here; hyperthetically anyway: 1) expansion or new ground is £££££ and that needs funding from a club that has stated it wants to be self sustaining and 2) a larger capacity - would we fill it often enough to justify it? Well, al hypothetically of course, there are a couple of ways of looking at this. Do you build extra capacity AFTER you have created a demand, thus missing out on 2-3 years of additioanl revenue while you wait for it to be built, or do you build in advance in anticipation of the demand to ensure it ready when needed? and then ensure your marketing, value and quality of entertainment is enough to drive the demand? Secondly, funding: The quotes form ML and NC were about creatinga self sustaing premiership club able to be competitive in the premier league - now suspend teh cynicism for a moment - what would any club need to be self sustaining in the prem...and be competitive? Revenue form gate as large as possible, and if not subsidised by huge volume sof cash annually, income generated through player sales and reducing costs of incoming transfer budget but developing your own talent in greater numbers... we have seen that ML and NC have to date not been shy of investing 18mil over 3 years to get us close to promotion (18 + 15 mil purchase is teh 33 mil equity investment) + we have started building 15 mil academy and traing ground upgrade... which would suggest that a plan was in place andprovsion made for additioanl investment as a one off to build infrastructure ....for self sustainability.... So it would not be beyond teh relms of plausibilty that funding provison has been made for stadium expansion should it be necessary in the future. The issue is, it its necessary if the club wants self sustaining competitiveness....

The right appeal is part of that law - if someone fecked up on dates that has nothing to do with the ECHR or the law itself.... but a admin feck up... so cant see why folk are having a dig at the ECHR/extradition rules etc becasue of an admin cock up - but its the same old, same old who anti EU brigade who jump on every such issue and twist it into a Brussels/Strasbourg v UK thing when ithat has nothing to do with it. Same way as the right wing press used to trawl out the old Bah bah Green sheep 'PC gone mad' bull shiedt every now ang againt to discredit the left wing GLC in London - a story that MADE UP in the first place.....

Extradition to Norway would be fine as they abide by an international code on Human rights and do not torture said arsehole in prison - thats the point. It the rights and freedoms this country fought the frickin Nazis for. To use the 'liberal' position is very poor. This is not a 'liberal' position but one of a law that 100,000s of britains died to defend.

True which make him and his ilk a bunch of total ****s. I and thankfully the more enlightened, educated, civilised human beings witin this country and the ECHR would not do teh same to him - because we are better than him and not ****s... Head from body seperaters = ****s Not sending folk to be relived of their barnet = not ****s

Not the point Whitey, seriously, just cos he aint one of ours does not mean we should drop any moral code we should be proud of.

18mil for that ugly thing? Cortese wears decent tailored suits and has italian style - cant see him agreeing to something as hideous as that even if its cheap....

Stick it all on Red:smug:

Thing is its easy to see him for the evil **** he obviously is, no mistake and if guilty of everything he is accused of, he deserves hit proper punishment. But the ECHR exists for a simple reason. IF we as a nation do not believe in torture or imprisonment without trial, or consider ourselves morally superior to countries where these things occure or they cut your hand off for theft etc, then we cantly simply send folk to those countries irrespective of what evil bastards they are... its no difefrent form doing that stuff here. I know it doe not seem right that we are stuck with these f*ckers, but ultimately its says more about our civilised and moral code, one of the reasons we can TRUELY be proud of this country than constantly using it as a stick because some have a gripe against the EU or dont agree with our membership. We should not be sending anyone to places of torture regardless of EU membership or not - for me its not helpful to either issue.... its just convenient to say its all the ECHR fault... PUT it this way - how do folk react to these options: 1. We cant send evil bastard to be tried in his own country because of the interfering wet ECHR dictating UK extradition policy.... 2. Britain has a rule of law and a moral ethical code that means we do not send accused criminals to be tried in states where human rights do not exist and where torture and imprisonment without trial is common.

Not so sure about that - a second tier was costed at around £3000 a seat back in 2003/4 - I would make that about £5000 a seat now - meaning an extra 10K is around £50mil. A new spanking 45k stadium would be well in excess of 140mil depending on design - BHA just spent 100mil on 20k!