CHAPEL END CHARLIE

Buddy I've seen the light! The next time I step out of line and express some horrid old right of centre opinion on here you just let me know and I'll consider myself told off.

Well however long it took it was certainly worth the effort. I must say it's the best laugh - at myself - I've had on here for ages and a clear indication of the hidden talent you will often find on this forum. Viva Pap!

Now you keep on implying that you don't like me, but I think todays selfless effort to amuse me proves that you secretly do. So I'm taking this as a watershed moment in our (sometimes troubled) relationship and I now fully expect that before very long we will become the best of forum friends. XXX

Oh come, come my little friend, it took you at least 30 minutes hard work and I appreciate the effort more that I can say.

Why PAP, you've gone to so much effort and I didn't even know you cared - thank you kindly

... sorry I must interrupt your semi amusing rant to say that I had hoped a new day would find you in a more agreeable mood and free from yesterdays little temper tantrums - yet another hope dashed! As a point of order, can you please enlighten us as to your authority to issue edicts to other SWF members regarding how they allowed to express themselves? If common usage terms, and even well known quotations, are now deemed out of order then I must say the future of this forum looks very dull. I must also add that for a left winger your approach to debate is alarmingly fascist - but there again those two ideologies were always just different sides of the same coin. The misunderstanding arises because I can distinctly recall you bragging on here (only a few weeks ago) about the many advantages of your top class polytechnic education. In the light of this important news one would have thought it reasonable therefore that you should be intellectually equipped to handle yourself on here. I must say that not only is it most disappointing to see that this is not the case, but this is also an indictment of standards in our further education establishments - I blame Thatcher. But if the Bard is now considered beyond the pale by the nations youth then perhaps I should avoid overtaxing that high powered brain of yours and stick to the issue at hand. As you are apparently no longer calling for additional evidence re the failings of the NHS can we now take it that you accept the findings of the Francis Report and the wider implications that go along with it? While I'm sure we can all understand that it must be a serious setback to learn that your delightfully old fashioned 'state organised services = always good' mindset may not be all that you had thought it were, you really should know by now that shooting the messenger* is unlikely to help. If there are any further matters you need my assistance with then don't hesitate to ask. *Henry IV part II

1 - I must say your first sentence would sound rather more convincing were it not for the OTT response that follows - methinks the lady doth protest too much. 2 - Although I'm sure many of us have been fortunate enough to have received good treatment from the NHS, the appalling Mid Staffs scandal did expose this organisations failings to all and sundry. What is more I strongly suspect examples of poor/unacceptable NHS practice will also be within the personal experience of many forum members reading this. Your questioning response to these (well known) failings being pointed out to you betrays a rather embarrassing level of naïveté regarding the true state of this nations public services. 3 - Your request that someone on here should betray the confidence of a family member in the employ of the NHS and identify the Hospital they work at - quite possibly placing her in a most difficult situation - is a yet another example of your naivety. If you really require further proof of NHS malpractice then you have already been provided with ample hard evidence from a reputable source, but here is some further reading for your education: http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/our-work/projects/francis-inquiry?gclid=CPfPvfnKw7YCFYjLtAodIWsAtQ 4 - Over the years I have encountered very few people who consider The Independent to be a "crap" newspaper. I must admit it is surprising that someone of your political leanings should think that. But please expand on your reasons for holding this view - I'm sure they will be most illuminating. 5 - The occasional employment of foreign terms that are both easily understandable and in common English usage is not generally considered to be a valid cause for hysterical offence! Calm down dear. 6 - You are right for once "cool and sophisticated" is indeed the target I like to aim at on here - aimed at but seldom hit alas. However given the tenor of your contributions to this forum I fear that is a depiction that is even less likely to be ever leveled at you.

Well my advice to you is that if you're going to post publicly on here you better be prepared to join in a open discussion with other SWF members. This is surely implicit when you join any Forum. However if you really must converse with one specific SWF member only, then this website does provide a purpose designed Private Message ('PM') facility specifically design for that very contingency. Should you require any further assistance as to the use of this feature then please don't hesitate to ask - always happy to help. Re the NHS question, due to the scale and wide spread publicity given to the Mid Staffs scandal the sheer naïveté of your post had forced me to conclude that you must somehow still be unaware of this important development. Reading your post again, I must say this assumption doesn't seem a entirely unreasonable one.

Do try to keep up: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/scandalhit-mid-staffordshire-nhs-trust-to-be-put-into-administration-8514576.html Not that I'd claim it's all bad you understand ...

Your enthusiasm for the failed and defeated Britain of the 1970's can only be explained by the fact you're too young to have actually experienced that grim place at first hand. As for the desirability of the long term state subsidy of industry, I must ask you again; where is the money coming from and why do you imagine that government is especially skilled in running business's anyway? It is surely the business of government to create a environment where business is free to flourish. There are some exceptions, but propping up failing concerns that should probably be left to sink or swim on merit has be shown time and time again to be the height of folly. Better surly to concentrate our efforts on encouraging the new industries that any dynamic economy must constantly create rather than keeping the moribund old ones in a near death state via a public money cash drip. Re the railways, you seem to be simultaneously arguing both for and against state subsidy, and in any case those old enough to have experienced the days of BR will confirm that it was a rotten second rate service that had become little more than a national joke. Yes a mix of public/private money is now pouring into the railways - but unlike the past it is today largely being used to invest in the infrastructure of the system rather than giving a militant and heavily unionized workforce a 15% pay rise every year. As for the motor industry, well the record shows that we actually produce rather more (and massively better) cars now than we did back in the dark days of the 1970's. This is due in large part to the fact that MT actively encouraged the main Japanese motor manufacturers to set up plants here. You call for us to follow the German/French economic model as if both where identical when two more different business cultures it would be hard to imagine. While the French do follow a state subsidy model I presume you approve of - and are currently paying the price for that - the Germans on the other hand hardly need to directly subsidize BMW, Mercedes Benz, or Audi anymore because these business are massively successful of course. A success built on foundations of a educated workforce, engineering excellence, free enterprise, and good industrial relations - ie everything 1970's Britain was not about. A unrealistic sense of nostalgia for the past is fault more commonly associated with the old, but judging from your contributions to this thread it seems the condition is in danger of spreading down the age spectrum.

Well Frank think back on the era again. Does it not strike you that a gentle, compassionate and consensual approach to tackling our ingrained social and economic problems at that time (an approach we both might have preferred to see adopted in a more perfect world) just wasn't a realistic option in the circumstances? Do you really think the militant hard left Trade Union leaders, the Provisional IRA before the British Army had fought it to a standstill, or even the odious Military Junta in Argentina were the types that could be easily reasoned with? Maybe it is sometimes necessary to wield a 'big stick' if you going to get anywhere in life. This country was in state of near crisis, a nation at war with itself you might say, and as any general knows you just can't fight a war with half measures. Lucky Jim Callaghan (as decent a man and consensual politician as you'll ever likely to meet) tried to reason with the trade union leadership - beer and sandwiches at Number Ten and all that - and look where it got him and his party. It's just no good arguing that a consensual PM would have been more palletable when the country was rapidly becoming borderline ungovernable at the time. As for her "grim legacy" as you put it. Well I think her real legacy was that she fought and won the battles that had to be won and she therefore created the conditions where the more consensual style politicians you prefer (Major/Blair/Brown/Cameron) could realistically succeed her. Now you tell me whether any of these (generally well intentioned) politicians have actually proved to be more effective Prime Ministers. For all her faults - and every significant leader I can think of has their share - she was in my opinion the right person, in the right job, at the right time. History has a way of throwing up leaders in situations like that. 'Cometh the hour, cometh the woman' you might say ...

This post is a proper old 'blast from the past' for me. How well I remember as a child hearing the adults around me drone on contemptuously about inferior "Japanese Rubbish" and how they were "Backing Britain" only to discover that when their Morris Marina (or even Jaguar XJ6 if they were better off) refused to start on a cold morning their neighbours "rubbish" Datsun unaccountably would. Have you heard the story about the chap who opened up the boot of his new Mini Metro to find some git on the production line had thrown a empty fag packet into the back - and it had been spay painted over! You say that even more public money should have been pumped into failing state controlled industries. Well this raises the interesting question of where does the money come from (the NHS/Defence/Pensions?) and in any case the record shows we dumped plenty into British Steel, Leyland, Upper Clyde Shipbuilders ... etc and it just didn't work. It is surely not the role of government to prop up failing uncompetitive business - perhaps some deserve to fail. It is hopelessly simplistic to blame the long term decline of our manufacturing sector on any one politician or political party - there's plenty of blame to spread around. OK (like many of Thatcher's sternest critics on here) you're just too young to remember the era properly. But try to look past what lefty school/university teachers may have taught you seek the truth. Poor management and a lack of investment played a big part in our industrial problems of course, I sometimes think the heavy price we paid for winning two World Wars was also significant, but Google 'Red Robbo' for example, learn about the terrible industrial relations of the era and try to gain a better understanding of the state our industry had fallen into at the time - The Sick Man of Europe. On a personal note, I left school in 1979 just as Thatcher came to power. At the tender age of 16 I emerged right into the face of a recession that makes our current problems look like a stroll in the park. As a result life was a real struggle for myself and millions of others like me at the time. But even as a working class (naturally Labour inclined) lad I knew in my heart of hearts that this nation needed someone like Thatcher to sort it out. What was the alternative anyway? If you really think we'd be some industrial superpower today had the likes of Michael Foot, Tony Benn, and Arthur Scargill been running the place then you better change your location info to Cloud Cuckoo Land my friend.

Your very first line is a debatable proposition. Michael Foot's notorious 83 election manifesto has been described - with some justification - as 'the longest suicide note in history' and while the Tories were indeed unpopular at the time, to state that their defeat was inevitable without the Falklands factor seems to this observer of British politics to be rather more of an opinion than a fact. With the Labour party's inherent divisions and weak leadership exposed to the full glare of a election campaign, I think it quite possible the polls may well have swung back towards the Conservatives even without events in the South Atlantic.

Well I used to work with a chap who spent the best years of his life down a pit - and paid the price for that with his health. You can rest assured that the grim realties of colliery life were a site less rosy than you think they were.

I wonder if their sons - not now doomed to follow their fathers down the pit - think about it.

Attlee was indeed before my time and became Prime Minister while the war was still ongoing of course, I wouldn't however for one moment suggest that his government didn't many achieve remarkable things in the most difficult of circumstances. Few will argue that the NHS wasn't a good development for the ordinary people of this country and even State control of the Railways and Mines ...etc was popular at the time. Perhaps history will judge that Nationalisation is what connects these two very different Prime Ministers - one gave it birth while the other did what she could to kill if off in many ways.

A divisive leader certainly, but easily the most significant British politician of her era and since Churchill in my opinion. I didn't happen to like the women all that much to be honest - I would have voted for Jim Challahan in 1979 were I not 16 at the time - but all those who are old enough to remember the appalling state this country had fallen into at that time - and who are honest enough to accept that obvious truth - really have to concede that she was the right Prime Minister at the right time. Just like Churchill she got plenty wrong in her time, indeed by the end of her reign the power had driven her more than a little mad methinks, but the key truth is that she stood up to the enemies of this great nation - both foreign and domestic - and she almost single handedly transformed this nation for the better in many ways. So the greatest peacetime British Prime Minister then? Our history is a long and remarkable one and there are many notable candidates for that accolade, but the greatest I've seen in my lifetime for sure.

Post of the season

Lets face it the great 2012/13 season keeper debate is long over, the mad Pole getting the nod ahead of Kelvin. As for the repeated calls on here to 'sign him up' - well he's no Annti Niemi but I guess most of us would be happy with that. You'd have to get inside this players head however to know whether he even wants to stay here anyway ... not a place I really want to go shipmates.

Take my advice - you need to work on making your sense of loyalty a more easily transferable aspect of your personality my friend. This is very much a Stalinist style forum now where as soon as anyone falls out of favour with the Don they are airbrushed out of history at the earliest opportunity. I quite expect the entire NA reign to be expunged from the record before very long as if it never happened. So if you're not careful you too can expect a midnight knock on the door as the forum sends its heavies round to sort you out. Sent from my old laptop en route to the Gulag.

All fair comment I'd say. I can't for the life of me see why only being in the country for less than a year excuses him somehow for that glaring miss today when JRods shot rebounded to him. Indeed the record shows does it not that for all his talent this player has never been especially prolific in front of goal. But the lad can obviously play a bit and his many supporters on here might just be proved right one fine day. While we await that development however he is no more immune to criticism than any other of our players.

Lovers of old black & white British movies might like to know that the hopelessly classic 'Hell Drivers' is back on our screens tomorrow morning. (BBC2 6.30AM) Watch out my felow film fans for a pre 'Zulu' Stanley Baker, a pre 'Doctor Who' William Hartnell, a pre 'Bond' Sean Connery, a pre 'Carry On' Sid James, and a pre 'Prisoner' Patrick McGoohan ... oh and lets throw in a post 'Ladykillers' Herbert Lom for good measure! If you pay close attention you might even spot a young Gordon Jackson (The Professionals), Alfie Bass, David McCallum (The Man from Uncle) Jill Ireland (who would later marry Charles Bronson) and Peggy Cummins (Night of the Demon) too. With the possible exception of 'The Battle of Britain' I can think of few British films that can boast a comparable cast list. Even if you're not into star gazing this is a bloody good little 'B' movie and you can rest assured that the mundane occupation of lorry driving has seldom been made to appear more dangerous, or exciting* * Although I must admit that Henri-Georges Clouzot's masterpiece 'The Wages of Fear' will forever remain the finest truck driving film ever made IMO.

And what did you think of Adam Lallana's contribution today?

Another awful result as we settle for some deadly dull mid table finish ... oh and bloody Guly got on again! I'll tell you what boy, any more of this sh1te and I'm going to jump ship and start supporting AFC Bournemouth. WARNING: The above post does not necessarily represent the views of the poster known as Chapel End Charlie.