Clapham Saint

Not necessarily. The phrase "Something is worth what a purchaser will pay for it" applies. In the case of a listed company the market capitalisation would usually give a good indication, however a fair market capitalisation depends upon a "perfect market" for the shares (i.e. they can be bought and sold easily and are traded regularly as well as all information being out in the open). My understanding is that there are very few SLH shares in ready circulation to be traded regularly. In addition the actual state of the company's finances isn't known. It could be argued that the current market cap isn't a fair reflection of the current value of the club.

In a pre-pack the Company goes into administration before the assets are sold (sometimes just 5 minuites before). I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the F.A. rules but in this situation I suspect that we would incur the 10 point penalty and possibly the additional 17 points if purchaser didn't also choose to pay off the footballing debts.

?? I hope you're not a lawyer. 1) An Administrator could seek remedy against either the purchaser or the Directors if the assets were sold at an undervalue unsder section 238 of the insolvency act. IF THEY WERE SOLD AT UNDERVALUE being key. There is nothing wrong with selling assets if you get fair value for them. 2) Who has mentioned CVA? A Creditors Voluntary Arrangement is a completely different process from and Administration where the Directors would remain in charge and be overseen by a Supervisor. HTH

Yes, but if SLH sold the club it would probably be placed into Creditors Voluntary Liquidation. Very similar end result but slightly different legal process. Edit: On reflection it could still be an administration, depends exactly which assets are sold along with the club (i.e. stadium, Jackson's Farm etc)

As with everything else that the Company owns it would be up for sale. The Stadium would be sold to whoever offers then most for it and Aviva get first bite at being re-paid from the proceeds. This obvoiusly means less (if any) money being left over to help in paying off the football related debts. In the current market I doubt that many purchasers will be in the offing. A couple of years ago some property developers may have been interested but I doubt that interest would be that high today. On that basis it is likely to be worth most to whoever buys the club (assuming that somebody does) and so would probably be sold to them. I assume that Aviva have a fixed charge over the stadium and so the administrator would need to their permission in order to sell it. In practice this would probably be a formality, however if there are no offers from developers and the offer made by the eventual purchaser of the club was too low AVIVA could block the sale. Bit of a ramble but I hope that makes sense. Let me know if not.

Except that given our financial situation the shares are good as worthless in reality. I don't know what Crouch, Wilde etcs other sharedealings have been like this year however if they have made profits elsewhere they might seek to sell some of the shares in saints (even if just for 1p) prior to the end of the tax year (5th April). This would crystallise the loss on the saints shares which they could then off-set against profits elsewhere to reduce their tax bill. Its not as though by hanging onto them they're likely to be able to sell them for more in the future. **Geek alert ends**

I do understand the point about being 10 points worse off next season by "putting it off", however given that we are still capable of avoiding the drop this season it seem recless to jump off a bridge now. And on a purely practical note its an irrelevant point now anyway as we're past the deadline.

Yes I would be very worried and would avoid if at all possible. For those that say administration is inevitable I would be using whatever time we have before that actually happens to actively market the club. When a buyer is found the "club" could be sold to a new company set up by the investor. He could then also pay off the football related debts on behalf of SLH. SLH could then go into administration but the "Club" would be protected and on its merry way in a new company. If SLH goes into administration with no buyer on the horizon a fire sale will ensue and I don't see how anybody could argue that we would be be in a better posiition. The only "plus" of going into administration would be that Lowe and Wilde would not be in control, however the alternative to the Deevil we know is somebody who's sole objective to to realise as much money as possible for creditors. I struggle to see how that leaves the club in a better position.

Pretty much as above however the only reason to continue trading is to acheive a higher price for the Company's assets. In this case the Ground, the "Club" and the player registrations. What happens would be impossible for us outside the club to predict. If an investor shows up and says that he will buy the club for £20m but the offer is dependent upon retaining current players then the administrator must take that into account if (for example) a club makes a low bid for Surman. He would run the club (and incur the costs) in expecation of being able to make the sale. Alternatively if nobody makes any bids or enquiries for the club then the administrator will no want to incur any of the running costs and so get what ever he can for the players and will shut down. He would most likely not want to close the club until he had sold all of the players however as as soon as the club stopped trading the value of the players who colapse to zero.

There is a long answer to this which involves refernces to the Insolvency Act and SIPs (Statement of Insovency Practice). The short answer is that the Administrator will sell the club to whoever can come up with the most cash up front. (£5m (say) now is bettrer than £5.5m spread over the next 3 years) for example). That may be Wilde and Lowe or it could be a consortium headed by Clapham Saint and Junior Mullet. In reality Lowe and Wilde will have a small advantage becuase although the Administrator will not discuss any other bidders with them they will be ITK about any other interested parties which were touch over the last couple of years whilst they were Directors and will also be aware of any figures which have previously been discussed (if there have been any). Joe Bloggs investor on the other hand won't have had access to this information.

A fan of any description wouldn't be allowed to work on the administration of their club full stop. Anything that might influence your decision making could be a conflict of interest.

You say that but... the focus in my exams (back in the day) was on perception of ethics rather than what was actually happening in any given situation. :smt017

I would hate for Saints to go into Admin.... but it would be interesting to work on it should we get it. Sadly I wouldn't be allowed anywhere near it if we do as I would have a conflict of interest. Pah... stupid professional ethics :mad:

If Bournmouth fees were £100k then maybe I was too bullish above when I said upwards of £250.... I would have thought saints would be similar as although we are a "bigger club" the work required should be similar. How longer were Bournmouth in Administration? You could probably work out a rough monthly cost which wouldn't be a million miles off.

Depends on how long the administration lasts. The administrator (and all of his staff working on the job) will be charged out at an hourly rate. As you say, how long is a peice of string but on a job the size of saints I would anticipate more than you have suggested. Ultimately the fees aren't paid by whoever owns the club going forward they are paid out of the funds that the administrator gets from selling off the assets (i.e. players/the "club") and reduce the amount that can be paid out to the creditors. This means that Barclays/Aviva/HMRC would effectively be taking the brunt of the cost becuase they will receive less than if the administrator were working for free. The fees would however make it a lot more difficult for the administrator to be able to pay off all of the football related debts. Possibly causing issues with regard to the points deduction rules, (which others on this site are more up to date with than I am).

My overdraft...

A proportion is preferential. Given that this is capped at £800 per emplyee there will be a significant amount unsecured. If the Club is sold to new aCompany/investor then all emloyment liabilities of all employees (playing or otherwise) will transfer to the new owner. In terms of "Would the palyers be paid at teh end of the month?" The Administrator would make a commercial decision. He would have to protect the assets of the Company. Those assets include "the club" and the players registrations. If not paying the palyers (say £200k for ease) would mean that they would all be able to leave and join other clubs then the administrator would be losing assets worth considerably more than £200k. He would also significantly reduce the prospect of an investor bying the club (as it wouldn't have any players). Long story short is that in practice they probably would be paid, however an administrator might ask them to accept slightly less than full salary.

Very reasonable actually....

It depends what you mean by "dismissed". Would he still technically be a director? Yes Would have any powers or influence over the running of the club? No

When a company goes into administration in effect what happens is that all of the Company's liabilities (including the bank account if it is in overdraft) are effectively frozen and there is a moratorium over the Company's debts. This basically means that nobody can demand the money that they are owed until the administrator has been through the formal process and decided how much each creditor will get. The administrator will open a new bank account which will be completely unconnected with the previous running of the club with which to operate teh Company going forward. Any money which you (or anybody else) pays to the Company after the point of the Administration Order goes into this new account for the running of the administration and would not be available to the Directors. HTH. If you want me to be more specific on anything just asked and I'll do my best (provided my boss doesn't come back into the room)

No. The director's would not automatically be dismissed although the Administrator would have the power to dismiss them if he or she chose. RL's (for exmaple) role as a director and his role as a shareholder are separate as far as an administrator is concerned. Also separate are the "club" (Saints) and the "Company" (SLH) Assuming that the club were to be sold to a new investor. He wouldn't be paid a penny for his shares which would cease to exist when SLH was disolved. There would be nothing to stop him (or indeed you) from setting up a new company and buying the club from the administrator though...

IF the Club went into Administration and you couldn't play the game then the deposit would be an unsecured claim (i.e. you probably wouldn't get it back). However I assume that it is a small deposit and that you haven't paid in full. If this is the case then the administrator will probably get more money from allowing the game to go ahead (and collecting the additional amount due) than from telling you to sling your hook.

Nope, not complete *******. When looking at appointing an Administrator Barclays and Aviva will look at the anticipated defecit (the loss that they are likely to take) as well as the reputational risk. Seeking to appoint now would be unlikely to generate significantly more funds for creditors than waiting until the end of the season but would probably carry a significant reputational risk generating negative publicity (especially in the Soton area). Sadly HMRC care much less about reputation. If the revenue are not being paid they are unlikely to be comfortable with the amount that they are owed (which is likely to be a BIG number) continuing to increase each month. They might (MIGHT) make a statutory demand and seek a winding up petition to force the club to pay up. If this happens then the directors will need to either pay up the amount that they owe, or seek the protection of some form of formal insolvency procedure to prevent the Company being placed into Liquidation and would likely seek to appoint Administrators themselves. The auditors not signing off on the Company being a going concern doesn't automatically mean that the Company has to go into administration however the directors would most likely need to assesst heir options to prevent any action being taken against them in the future. Hope that make sense... CS.

+1 The one I was seeing was total filth.

I'm not sure to be honest. I have now received my 4GB upgrade but am still having issues and lots of others seem to be in the same boat http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=469 On my machine although the game loads and appears to be running perfectly it freezes every time it tries to load a naval battle or during the turn end sequence it runs through all of the factions absolutely fine until it reaches the thirteen colonies when it simply freezes and is therefore unplayable. Again although it is a year or so old now I consider my machine to be not totally **** spec and am pretty dissapointed that its struggling: Processor: Intel Core2 Duo processor T7500 (2.2 GHz and 800 MHz FSB) Memory: 2 GB DDR2-667 SDRAM (2x1024 MB), maximum 4 GB DDR2-667 SDRAM HD Capacity: 200 GB Serial ATA 5400 rpm hard disk drive Display: 15.4" WXGA (1280 x 800) Widescreen X-black LCD screen Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GS graphics processing unit with Total Available Graphics Memory of 1023 MB and dedicated Video Memory of 256 MB Operating System: Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium