S-Clarke

I'm absolutley astounded by that. sheer incompetence by all. Absolutley horrific. They need to have a long fucking hard look at themselves after that. How can they do this? Us for doing what we did, fucking idiots. But Christ on a bike, how does that warrant this level of punishment? I'm shocked, taken a back by this. Not sure what to say.

Yeah it's been mental, how it's been dragged out isn't fair on anyone - Hull fans indirectly implicated. I don't know why they've left this hanging for as long as they have, it's not even the crime of the century in the grand scheme of things. Stupid, yes, but this is all so overblown and not fair on us fans.

Also I'd add that Boro's statement a few weeks ago was very desperate, and struck of them throwing their toys out - I reckon at this point everyone was told that the EFL recommends against expulsion, so they tried to apply a bit of pressure. That statement wouldn't have come from anywhere.

That's a great example, and it shows the process - the EFL don't make the decision, they will make recommendations based upon the evidence provided by Boro and ourselves. Boro aren't 'close' to this like they believe they are, we have been able to fight our corner with counter evidence - so we'll see what they come up with. If the EFL had recommended the committee to consider expulsion, we'd know about it by now. There will have been chats in the background with the clubs, media, Sky etc to set the expectation out in confidence.

Delighted for him, such a huge reward after a torrid few years. I just hope they manage him correctly during the summer. I thought it was over for him, I didn't ever see him coming back properly - but credit to him, as there must have been some dark days. I don't think he'll ever be a full 90 every week kind of player again, but he can still have an impact.

Yep exactly, as far as I know there are no specific sanctions applied to this new rule - so it's up to whoever to say what they feel is proportionate. Like you say, stopping us getting promoted in a one off game is totally different to Norwich being docked 6 points in the middle of next season, they could make that up. We couldn't. Punishments need to be proportionate and fair across multiple scenarios, and expulsion would be nonsense. As I said yesterday, I'm more angry/frustrated that the club have seemingly done something as stupid as this to hang a cloud over the build up. It's not fair on the fans more than anyone else, yet we're the ones being dragged through the mud. It should be an exciting week.

I don't understand why people think we're being booted out, it's too late for that. Just look at the facts. The club have almost sold out the allocation and are still activley selling tickets this morning. Travel, accommodation has been booked by thousands of fans of both Hull and ourselves. The cost to expel us would be huge to the EFL, they'd have Hull up in arms, our fans up in arms, accommodation non-refundable and a right old mess. The fans are innocent in all of this and expulsion would harm the fans a lot, and I'm sure the authorities wouldn't see that as a fair trade for something we've had no involvement in. The final is 23rd at 4:30 and it will happen as stands. If we were getting removed ourselves and Hull would have got wind by now. The hearing hasn't just 'started' today, things have been going on for a number of days. It will be club and individual specific sanctions, fines, bans and suspended points deductions are all that's on the table if anything is proven. Expulsion at this late stage harms the fans and will create an almighty mess everywhere.

When they kept pressing Tonda in the press-interviews post/pre-boro, he said he really would like to say what's gone on and say a bit more - but he can't yet, and when he can he will say what's happened. That doesn't strike me as someone who is about to confirm he's orchestrated a massive footballing spy franchise. Blown out of all proportion by the Boro lot is where I'm still sat, and which is why Saturday is happening. Not ITK, but there's no feasible way the EFL can stop this game now and change the opponent.

Their forums are like an extremely bad version of a Transfer ITK thread, it's somewhat embarrassing to read. Their focus should really be on why they didn't finish Top 2 after being there for 217 days, and not scoring in the first half against us when they had 17 shots.

There's no real past examples of that, there are no spying rules in this context in the PL. We'd almost certainly appeal that and probably win if it was applied to the EPL. IMO The points deduction can only truly apply in the EFL and it must be suspended for if we're caught doing it again, nothing else works. Boro won't like that, which is why a summer of courts ensues.

Worse case finance wise IMO, but if there is a point deduction it will be suspended. Not just for the EFL, but it will be applied in the EFL if we are caught doing it again. That's my best guess. They can't impose a sanction this summer as it would throw things into a bit of turmoil as the league is over, and equally keeping it suspended for when we next compete in the league isn't fair in my eyes. Caught doing it again, absolutely. But keeping that on hold in this context seems odd, given that if we go up we may stay in the PL for a decade. 250-500K for breaching the good faith rule, and then a bigger amount for breaching the new spying rule.

How I see this going - Rule 1 - Not acting in good faith, a fine. Not sure they can go much further above what they issued leeds with, as Leeds were charged based upon that existing rule. Rule 2 - Spying close to the game, new rule put in place. This is where the unknowns are, my best guess is a points deduction or another fine. The points deduction would be suspended in nature. Boro will be unhappy, they'll launch their own appeal via the courts (they can't appeal the EFL), and they'll try to sue us privately outside of EFL - so at that point, it's all about the money Gibson wants in compo rather than enforcing sporting sanctions as they can't do that. There is also a possibility of individual sporting bans, but these aren't decided by the EFL - this would go up to the FA/FIFA and a new disciplinary track, which will take time. So in my eyes the final goes ahead, the date won't change, the opponent won't change, but get ready for a summer of court battles.

Boro think it's all about them, which is why they demanded they also sit around the table. They're a bit clueless on how this all works, it has to be said. We haven't broken Boro rules, we broke EFL rules. They reported it to the EFL, the EFL are the ones who action against it. No idea where Boro have got all this ''we are making the decision'' from - they're not, it's nothing to do with them apart from them reporting it. Independent is the key word. This is why all their ITK's are nonsense too, none of them have got a clue as there is no one Boro close to it.

Given that the ticket sales went ahead on Friday, and I'm currently in a queue for mine, I'd suggest both clubs have been privately told that expulsion isn't on the cards - so just to carry on with this as normal. Otherwise this will be an absolute mess of refunds and lost money. There's no chance we'd both be selling tickets today if we were getting booted out.

This is just like a bad version of the transfer window rumour thread. All those Boro fans claiming ITK, when their cat probably knows more - and why would they know anything when they have no representatives at the hearing anyway? They don't half chat some utter shit.

I think he's talented, and other clubs can see that - I'm not sure Man Utd/Arsenal/PSG would see him as a first choice, more of a squad player at present. He's still a little raw in my eyes, got some refining to do to his game - he's just picked a bad one in WHU for his 'bounce back'. I think he'd be a good shout for someone like Brentford, Bournemouth or Brighton to integrate. I feel sorry for him though as I saw a social media post by him that says he's falling out of love with football.

This is all so frustrating, I just want to look forward to the game. Discuss the team, think about which players are fit, who is back in training etc. This is being allowed to hang over both ourselves and Hull for too long in my eyes - just get on with it already, make the decision. The fans are the ones being punished here. No one knows where they stand, and the speculation is rife because of it. I think it's being totally overblown (by Boro) as this isn't even a regulation in the EPL or FIFA wide per say (just assumed good faith), but I can't lie that I'm frustrated by the club that they chose to partake in this so blatantly in the first place, right before a knock out game, and give everyone the ammunition they now have - because you can't lie, this is an own goal no matter how small of one.

I think the context is somewhat different, as I believe Leeds were caught in December - the game in question when they beat Derby, they were way down the league at that point. It wasn't a decider per-say. They did admit to have been doing it all season though up to that point, to all clubs, so in that context it's certainly worse form than ourselves. But the timing and context of the game makes it look worse for us, because it's more of a 'final' and there aren't another 20 games to makeup the wrong doings etc etc. I don't think what we did impacted the result though, so I think the argument is flimsy at best that it cost them promotion - but they'll almost certainly play that angle.

Nope, just all guess work. Boro fans opinion is that he's a 'nonce' and needs to be banned from football, as they believe he'll be a risk to Children if not cheating. They are a bunch of utter weirdos.

I'd suggest that's probably on the worst-case extreme of what'll happen. I think it'll be a fine, and then Boro will take the EFL and ourselves through the courts to try and get more dosh for them. That's all Gibson wants, he's positioning himself for a legal battle to secure the most compensation - he's trying to grab the PL money without being good enough to get there himself.

It was unsporting and poor form, absolutley with you on that. But in the cold light and day the data collected is no different than what goes on anyway, just less stupid ways. I'm not denying what we did was foolish and makes no sense, because the advantage we'd gain is just not even worth trying for - that's why any punishment should be proportionate to that. We haven't killed anyone, we haven't paid anyone off, we haven't bribed a referee or fielded players we bought illegally to win the game. We've just been a bit dumb and gone about scouting in an unsporting way.

What about all the goalies who write down the pen takers, the potential order and what side they hit? It's literally written on a lot of their water bottles. If that is what constitutes spying and gaining an unfair advantage, then they should sack off lots of GK's and rule lots of finals null and void. Jordan Pickford did that with England in a recent tournament, I guess Boro would have been in full agreement for England to have been eliminated on the spot?

Exactly, I'd say our approach is how you act in these situations. Who knows, there may be other clubs who have brought a case to the table too - but you don't broadcast shit like this unless you want to get an advantage from it, and we all know that's all it's about. They want a free run at the PL and we've stupidly given them an angle to try and get that, albeit a very slim angle it has to be said.

Let's just lay out the two potential cases here. 1) We have been found to have foolishly spied once, that's the only evidence. No other clubs impacted and thus the only punishment in that sense is a fine. They couldn't issue sporting sanctions for a one off event. 2) We have been found to have foolishly done it all season, and there's tons of evidence to back it up. This does in fact bring the game into disrepute in a bigger level, and you then certainly have the power to impose sporting sanctions as the severity and potential advantages you could have gained is much higher. But digging into point 2 a little bit more is where it gets tricky in this timespan. If that were the case, lots of clubs would have legal cases and stacks of evidence against us. Derby and Wrexham would be up in the arms and demanding to go into the playoffs in place of us. We'd obviously appeal, everything would be delayed, no one would know what league they'll be in and the entire competition is a mess and can't start next year. They wouldn't allow that to happen. Personally the chances of 2 are very slim, because like I said we'd have had more about other clubs by now. This seems to be a Middlesbrough solo effort pinned solely on point 1, which they blew out to try and gain an advantage - which they couldn't take. So at this point Sporting Sanctions shouldn't really be in the equation for a one off evidenced event, which has been proven to have had no impact on the result. A fine and a slap on the wrist is the worst case IMO.

He's having a laugh if he gets that sort of compensation from us. When West Ham were found to have illegally registered Tevez and Mascarano back in 07-08 (i think), they stayed up ahead of Sheffield United and Tevez scored the winning goal in the last game which ultimately kept them up iirc. WHU were ordered to settle £20m compensation to Sheffield United. Compare that to a young lad with an IPhone taking pictures from behind a tree. They are totally opposite in extreme levels, so thinking a punishment should be equal is crazy. And by the way, WHU didn't get 'expelled' or docked points for that either.