benjii Posted 5 April, 2009 Share Posted 5 April, 2009 (edited) Can't be arsed to trawl the archive... Was the reason given by the club for not offering next year's ST for sale that there was uncertainty over our league status or our financial status? I recall it was due to the parlous league position. Presumably even our board realised there would have to be a significant dicsount if we got relegated and so it just wasn't feasible to sell them at the current time. Now, if we really were only £100,000 over our agreed borrowing, could we not have sold season tickets at a knock-down £200 now to try to finance the club until the end of the season? Sure, it compromises potential income for next year if we do stay up, but frankly right now - so what?! People might say it is imoral to sell them when the ongoing existence of the club is in jeopardy but if they came with a massive "health warning" attached to that effect it would then be up to the punters to make a reasoned choice. In any event - a new owner would still honour them. I reckon we would get at least 8,000 sales at that price, probably over 10,000 in fact. That's £2,000,000. I find it odd that the board didn't try this. Edited 5 April, 2009 by benjii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuRomseySaint Posted 5 April, 2009 Share Posted 5 April, 2009 The reason was there was a significant chance we would not be in business next season, so they didn't want to take money that they wouldn't be able to refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mase Posted 5 April, 2009 Share Posted 5 April, 2009 Shame that Stu is right.. Because the club would sell the maximum amount of Season Tickets quite comfortably in my opinion. Probably even IF they stayed at there current prices… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken Posted 5 April, 2009 Share Posted 5 April, 2009 I suspect that it would be illegal to take advanced sales (which is what season tickets are) if you are aware that you unable to deliver the product ie. no football matches. Might not like some of the things that have gone on at this club in recent times but I'm sure those who have control wouldn't lay themselves open to criminal proceedings in such a blatant way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 5 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 5 April, 2009 I suspect that it would be illegal to take advanced sales (which is what season tickets are) if you are aware that you unable to deliver the product ie. no football matches. Might not like some of the things that have gone on at this club in recent times but I'm sure those who have control wouldn't lay themselves open to criminal proceedings in such a blatant way! But if they're sold with a clear health warning ie. "the club today offers fans the chance to help it survive the season financially. The cut-price tickets are sold on the understanding that there is material doubt over the ability of the group to survive this season" I don't think there would be a problem. Yes, wrongful trading (ie trading whilst knowingly insolvent) is unlawful but then we shouldn't be selling tickets for any home games this season on that basis and, as we know, the football club aint insolvent . Add to this the fact that any reborn professional guise of SFC will undoubtedly honour the season tickets and you have little cause for concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint_mears Posted 5 April, 2009 Share Posted 5 April, 2009 The club said they where not going to sell season tickets as they where unsure what league we would be playing in. That never made any sense as we have been in that position many times before. There are other clubs currently in adminstration and selling season tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 5 April, 2009 Share Posted 5 April, 2009 But if they're sold with a clear health warning ie. "the club today offers fans the chance to help it survive the season financially. The cut-price tickets are sold on the understanding that there is material doubt over the ability of the group to survive this season" I don't think there would be a problem. Yes, wrongful trading (ie trading whilst knowingly insolvent) is unlawful but then we shouldn't be selling tickets for any home games this season on that basis and, as we know, the football club aint insolvent . Add to this the fact that any reborn professional guise of SFC will undoubtedly honour the season tickets and you have little cause for concern. I can see what you are saying but don't think you could do that in the real world, not least because the fans would go mad. Can you imagine MFI saying "these kitchens are dirt cheap, but that's because we can't guarantee you getting one if you buy one from us". Being in admin is a bit like being pregnant - you either are or you aren't and you can't suggest you might be nearly and use that to secure more cash from your customer base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 6 April, 2009 Share Posted 6 April, 2009 Can't be arsed to trawl the archive... Was the reason given by the club for not offering next year's ST for sale that there was uncertainty over our league status or our financial status? I recall it was due to the parlous league position. Presumably even our board realised there would have to be a significant dicsount if we got relegated and so it just wasn't feasible to sell them at the current time. Now, if we really were only £100,000 over our agreed borrowing, could we not have sold season tickets at a knock-down £200 now to try to finance the club until the end of the season? Sure, it compromises potential income for next year if we do stay up, but frankly right now - so what?! People might say it is imoral to sell them when the ongoing existence of the club is in jeopardy but if they came with a massive "health warning" attached to that effect it would then be up to the punters to make a reasoned choice. In any event - a new owner would still honour them. I reckon we would get at least 8,000 sales at that price, probably over 10,000 in fact. That's £2,000,000. I find it odd that the board didn't try this. Lowe and the board were protecting the fans interests simple as that. If they had gone down the March Madness route the whole lot would have gone to the principal creditors. The writing was on the wall and despite the boards frantic efforts they failed to secure our future. Just a pity that effort wasn't matched until now. Save our Saints might have been a somewhat more productive protest than Lowe Out don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 6 April, 2009 Share Posted 6 April, 2009 Save our Saints might have been a somewhat more productive protest than Lowe Out don't you think? The two protests I believe contributed to our best team performances this season. You can't really argue with the facts imvho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 6 April, 2009 Share Posted 6 April, 2009 The two protests I believe contributed to our best team performances this season. You can't really argue with the facts imvho. But the protests didn't help us remain in control of our own destiny did they and now we are in the hands of people who care about us even less than Lowe did alledgedly according to some of his more vociferous detractors. Now we are at the mercy of our major creditors and one we know whose business practices in general are under the closest scrutiny and therefore not exactly in a position to want to negotiate. If we owe monies to HMRC as well then we are in it up to our sorry necks. Thats before the Football League deliberate over twisting the knife on Tuesday. The fact is Hamster the protests and the boycotts were culpable in bringing about this situation today and why fans at Forest, Charlton, Norwich and Derby (when they were struggling) decided to support not protest. We need to move forward and unite but some need to recognise that they were wrong in their actions to stay away judging by the turn out on Saturday. I still remain convinced if people had recognised we were operating with both hands tied behind our backs and supported the club accordingly we would not be in this desperate limbo we now find ourselves and unable to influence the outcome. The Adminstrators and our creditors will decide the fate and how does that feel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwarwick Posted 6 April, 2009 Share Posted 6 April, 2009 ]The club said they where not going to sell season tickets as they where unsure what league we would be playing in[/b]. That never made any sense as we have been in that position many times before. There are other clubs currently in adminstration and selling season tickets. They (the club) never ever mentioned this reason why they delayed the selling of season tickets due to not knowing what league we would be playing in next season. You may have read it on this message board but that doesn't make it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooohTerryHurlock Posted 6 April, 2009 Share Posted 6 April, 2009 But the protests didn't help us remain in control of our own destiny did they and now we are in the hands of people who care about us even less than Lowe did alledgedly according to some of his more vociferous detractors. Now we are at the mercy of our major creditors and one we know whose business practices in general are under the closest scrutiny and therefore not exactly in a position to want to negotiate. If we owe monies to HMRC as well then we are in it up to our sorry necks. Thats before the Football League deliberate over twisting the knife on Tuesday. The fact is Hamster the protests and the boycotts were culpable in bringing about this situation today and why fans at Forest, Charlton, Norwich and Derby (when they were struggling) decided to support not protest. We need to move forward and unite but some need to recognise that they were wrong in their actions to stay away judging by the turn out on Saturday. I still remain convinced if people had recognised we were operating with both hands tied behind our backs and supported the club accordingly we would not be in this desperate limbo we now find ourselves and unable to influence the outcome. The Adminstrators and our creditors will decide the fate and how does that feel? These clubs did n't have someone as utterly detested as RL - Also certainly in Norwich's case the club has remained very strongly family orientated and does n't see fans as "Customers". Also the pricing structure is a large part of why fans have stayed away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 6 April, 2009 Share Posted 6 April, 2009 Lowe and the board were protecting the fans interests simple as that. If they had gone down the March Madness route the whole lot would have gone to the principal creditors. The writing was on the wall and despite the boards frantic efforts they failed to secure our future. Just a pity that effort wasn't matched until now. Save our Saints might have been a somewhat more productive protest than Lowe Out don't you think? problem is no one believed a word rupert and wilde said, they were the classic , how do you know someone is lying , their lips are moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 6 April, 2009 Share Posted 6 April, 2009 Lowe and the board were protecting the fans interests simple as that. If they had gone down the March Madness route the whole lot would have gone to the principal creditors. The writing was on the wall and despite the boards frantic efforts they failed to secure our future. Just a pity that effort wasn't matched until now. Save our Saints might have been a somewhat more productive protest than Lowe Out don't you think? LOL! They were protecting themselves. No solicitor or IP that they were being advised by would have let them sell season tickets given the uncertainty surrounding teh club. By selling season tickets when they knew that there was a good chance of not being able to honour them exposes them to: 1) Wrongful trading 2) Paying a preference (i.e. repaying the Bank at the expense of other creditors) under (if memory serves) section 239 of the insolvency act. This could have resulted in the directors becoming PERSONALLY liable for repaying the season ticket holders. Do you honestly beleive that the boardroom discussion was: Wilde: "So shall we roll out the early bird season tickets, that will help the cash flow as we're only £110k short". Rupes: "Golly gosh no old bean! Although we are just £110k short of paying the bank what they have asked for it could be frightfully unfair on those poor supporters, I'd hate for them to lose out after the fantastic loyalty they've shown over the years." Although I don't think Lowe should be taking 100% of the blame (as some sem to) his the motivation for not collecting season ticket money was not to protect fans interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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