gio1saints

Did anyone ask the manager exactly how patient we have to be? When should we start seeing consistent results from this footballing master plan? Thats a great question at the heart of the debate we are having on this forum right now- and no doubt on the terraces of SMS and at Hull shortly. Despite some of the acrimony theres no question all sides on this discussion only want Saints to do well. So we have a common goal in mind 100%. When by thought? The major difference, I suggest, is that after 11 games some have seen enough. Patience is finite. Whereas others do not have such a definitive number of games or points number in kind. Neither are “ wrong” . NB. my caveat is abusing the team& manager ( v legitimate criticising)- ditto abusing those who defend the team and manager ( v debate criticising) - both are disgraceful. Im in the “ do not have a definitive number of games or points” camp. And I DO understand those who can argue that this is dangerously stupidly madly wrong. Last season was a right mess. Indeed the last few years were very disappointing. But NOBODY could accurately judge how long it was going to take to dig out all the obvious decay, standards depreciation and general depression within Southampton Football Club. NOBODY could accurately judge how the restart would execute, how long it would take for minds to clear, players to leave, new to start, for new positive thinking to take root and flourish. NOBODY - despite what any footballing business plans SR might produce - and no matter how desperately we saints supporters want it all yesterday We as supporters are brilliant at endlessly deluding ourselves that we are all ok if we win on Saturday or all terrible if we do not. Id prefer we concentrate on getting the last vestiges of fear anxiety and depression out of our club ( that’s Russell’s job) replaced with positivity clarity of thought and a coherent style of football ( that’s Russell’s job too). GET that right and we will start winning games playing brilliant football. Doing it in a sustainable way even better. (That means not needing to buy big fee players but developing them ourselves). IF that happens we don’t need worry so much about “ when by” as the points and results and promotions and supporter happiness accordingly will all come. BUT for those that insist - I think k at least one season. I want to judge on how the club is evolving in a holistic way - yes ultimately points- but I just think that there is VALUE in stability after all the rubbish we’ve been through. Time itself is a great healer. Trying to force it and getting angry when it’s not at the pace we’d like- well that’s no doing our health any good nor frankly helping players perform. Anxiety is the enemy- for fans AND players. All support can do really to help is - encourage.

Which is exactly what he said. In fact he showed us detailed video clips from that match showing precisely how badly we were fannying around with the ball in a congested central middle third of the pitch in 2nd half. The players were told specifically at HT and also those who came on, to move up a gear and switch the ball wide and quicker - because it was obvious R were just blocking the centre and we often had a wide man in space - which we could clearly see from the multiple video clips was the case, yet we seemed to be happy passing it around aimlessly. He put that down to complacency - which is his fault- but also fear. Fear of making the dangerous pass with higher risk of failure instead of the “ safe” pass that retains possession but does not hurt them. He repeated that it’s his job to encourage the players to play without fear so it’s his fault if they played “safe” when he expressly has asked for more bravery. And he said against any opponent 1-0 is dangerous and so it proved. He did not hide behind stats but he just let us be aware of them - Apparently Rotherham had an xg of 0.12. The boss of the footie stats data company that sends RM the stats every week even phoned him to say that Rotherham lose that match 98 out of 100 times, not that’s any consolation. Rotherham’s best midfielder touched the ball 10 times in the entire match. And so on. It was a freak. But in football it can happen and the players have all ( except Che and Stu) been shown the videos of the match to show what went wrong - as Individuals, in their “ units” and as a squad. The belief is that this meticulous, extensive, learn from our mistakes and work/train hard on it process - and the set piece specialist recruitment is another example- will bear fruit sooner rather than later. And is it Jam tomorrow? Yeah course it is. Anyone offering you instant results is a conman. Or a politician.

Fabrice, EVERYBODY knows you don't play inverted full backs 3 days after a 5-0 away drubbing. It’s a Xmas tree formation of course and then that’s always followed by straight 442. Don't you know anything about professional football???Duh. 😂😂😂. Honestly, the watertight antipathy towards RH and JW - and by inference even those trying to make objective sense of it - cannot be healthy for posters here? RM seems to laugh it off and expects it - though nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition to paraphrase Monty Python. I think as long as it’s fair criticism - meaning not abuse which sadly IS the default approach of some - then he’s big enough to take it on the chin. He sticks up for himself - so some call him arrogant. He admits obstinacy is an Achilles heel for him. He has footballing ideals so some call him an idiot or dreamer, he has passion and can articulate it - so some hate him for daring. He played for Scotland - say no more! He basically walked up with a target on his jumper and said I’m here to get hammered if you want and or please allow me to explain the what and the why first if I may. The arrogant prick talking to us like a civilised human being. How dare he!!!😂😂😂

Now now Saint Garett. That’s far too obvious for anyone who bothers to actually research the comparison. We both play the same way now so we should get the same results. Playing differently before under Jones and Selles and Ralph is just an excuse. So you are obviously a Club plant . You should change your name to Saint Turnip of Saint Begonia. 😂😂😂

Ok. Another one: This by RM to help refute the Gav is pony thing ( which admittedly I think has toned down a lot in last few games) . Gavin was NOT at fault for the Rotherham goal contrary to some supporter perception. In that exact situation it was the job of the CB to head the ball back to him. Gav came forward for precisely that- as he is supposed to do - but the header ( from TEB) did not materialise. KS was “ knackered “ by the time of the Rotherham match. Three starts in a week was probably too much for him as he still rehabilitates and gets to full fitness. RM stated he had never ever coached a player like KS in his entire managerial career. So there’s an element of the unknown there. That can be good AND bad - as we’ve seen already this season. But What the team try to do is to engineer it so that KS can be one on one- not that he has to dribble past 4 or 5 to score like v Liverpool. He obviously is regarded as a high value “special” talent. Think most would agree with that but was interesting to hear some background on him.

Fair enough. Yes it was a PR exercise. Public Relations is not ALL about lying to customers in order to keep them buying your product/ service/ narrative though 😁 JW in particular emphasised that supporter connection was a vital element in the process. RM said fan connection was easy when you win - we dont care how bad we play as long as we got 3 points- but that when results go badly he expects to “ get hammered” called an “arrogant prick” and so on ( his own words). So he and JW were discussing the tactics and situation that we were seeing and essentially said why not share this with the support somehow so maybe they will have greater understanding for the scale and scope of what’s being attempted. And with that understanding maybe confidence emerges or faith or reassurance. The opposite of hopelessness anyway. Hence the “ PR” fan forum strategy meeting. He gave a telling story about his last match after 7 or 8(or 9) years as captain of Norwich I think it was when he was booed by his own fans. In his final match. So he gets that some support dont care about anything other than the 3 pts here and now. Totally gets it. And not got a problem with it. Just wanted to inform that there was purpose - and proper decent footballingideals - behind everything. He just wants us to play beautiful winning football. Not slowly not “down the channels” but in the most highly regarded style that is in use by the best English teams right now, Our goal is to get as good as they. But sustainably because we cannot buy Foden, Grealish, Stones etc.

If anyone has a specific question and I heard JW or RH answer it I’m ok with a polite DM. It is v difficult as an audience member trying to explain why they are doing what they do to this forum without sounding like an apologist ie excuse maker for not being top of the league by now. What I can assure you is that I came away feeling reassured by it. Those guys are trustworthy honest and honourable. Frankly good fair decent saints guys I’d have a pint with anytime.

It was advertised on the club website - tickets cost an £3 donation to the Saints foundation. And I think ST holders got first dibs. There was no pre-selection of attendees. 250 people were there. If the “ same” people seem to attend these events maybe they just like turning up to these things or care enough about the club to make the effort to find out for themselves, from the horses mouth, what’s going on in Saintsland. The questions asked from the floor were all pretty insightful / good imo and not sycophantically worded or “planted”. Given all that it was certainly a PR exercise. But Saints are damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Given the obvious support base disgruntlement at the results it was the right thing to do imo. Neither RH and JW were hiding and both took 2 solid hours out to explain, face to face and often in minute detail, the thinking, the actions, the processes, the statistics, the player feelings, their own feelings and so on. Many ( all ) anecdotes used to flesh out the responses were first time I’d ever heard or known of. just one example: Day one someone was late to training. RH is not a fan of fines. He prefers running. So the whole squad do a punishing run. Second day someone was late. So the whole squad had to do a punishing run. Day 3 Jack Stephens ( and remember JWP was still captain at the time) went to speak to RH about it and there was a group discussion amongst the players. Result: discipline enforced, team support for each other, accountability and back up for each other reinforced, JS obvious captain and squad leader credentials exposed. Many similar stories.

Nope. There were lots of references to different players in different ways - including an astonishing (if accurate) statistic about the number of squad players out of 31 at the start of season who indicated to RH they were considering leaving. But nothing about Ross.

Only just back but took copious notes and in particular listened Intently to what was being said by JW and RM , and how they said it - especially their body language. im writing the full stuff up for saintlist but im sure there are plenty others from this forum who were there and can report. My summary is : WOW. Impressive command of the subject, from all three speakers ( including our Swedish set peice coach). We were shown and talked through multiple slides multiple real game video situation analysis and tons of background info on the whole spectrum of attack, defending possession , set pieces, Psychology training set ups, inverted wi g backs, false nines, the role of flair players, Gavins roles, the younger ones coming through - the works. Kenzi was the compère and there were at least one pre sent in question and one from the floor question from five different popular topics. The crowd responded and both she and they were very good. I will comment later on specifics if anyone’s interested or go read it in the Saintslist.m or on saints website tomorrow no doubt. Saintly regards, Giordano.

Getting the best out of Sulemana - and Charlie- may well be the key to promotion. I do not really care what formation or tactical theory we play as long as we give those two the ball as often as possible. And defend stoutly. That should be enough at this level. Was’nt our tactic once to just give the ball to le tiss and everyone else work your butts off to stop the oppo scoring? (Pub quiz : which manager precisely?) Im not comparing KS & Charlie with MLT but they are all “ difference makers” - in the first two cases we should preface difference makers with “ potential” as MLT was obviously proven outstanding whilst those two , and to alesser extent Sam and Amo are all full of potential but not really done much consistently excellent of note - yet. 🙏

Yup I’d say so St Clark - and I don’t think many could realistically disagree too much But I’d imagine most would also agree that mastery - that means a consistently high level of proficiency in the “ possession game” this case - of anything new takes time. How long other teams take / took to master a system is only a guide- not gospel. Our manager, players and the whole context is unique. Some parallels absolutely - but our situation is our situation- not Leicester or Brighton’s, Perversely I’d expect the younger players to pick up our “ possession “ based game quicker than the older ones but all the same it takes time and for each it’s different. If I had to point my finger at what I thought was one main invisible but major contributory factor for our poorer performances this season ( the bad losses I mean) it would be that,: under pressure, they’ve mentally cracked and reverted to playing like a team used to getting beaten and relegated - and all of a sudden they cannot run pass tackle or shoot even open their mouths at anything like the level we know they are capable of. I know. a bit about Sports Pyschology, and professional sports management and Russell’s hardest job is not teaching them to how to pass a ball better - it’s getting the players to totally believe in their own ability.. It’s incredibly hard when 32,000 people are going g to dissect your every mistake. But it marks out the average:good from the great. And why I seem so obsessed on getting our crowd to fully support what the players are trying to do- even when they fuck it up,

You may well be right Alex. It’s a cynical world. If I was a player I’d know where my bread was buttered but I’d also be smart enough to keep my private opinions of some supporters to myself or private groups. What makes some of the support and probably them the players so cynical is that it’s either feast or famine. One bad performance away from being called a c un t out there or one good performance away from three fist bumps to the Northam. Maybe we close that gap a bit introduce little bit more trust and even more unconditional support - but in return get delivered performances and if not then at minimumgenuine remorse and proper apology from Manager and the team

It’s actually a lot deeper than that Alex. The question strikes right at the very heart of the “ bravery” heading that RM wishes our team to abide by. IF our performance is inadequate then what usually happens is they get off the pitch fast as possible. Then in interview online or on tv RM or a player will say sorry we will try harder / do better/ stat faster- keep our heads up next time. And rinse and repeat. When we win it’s the fist bumps which we respond to loudly and positively. My question - and it’s a follow up which I will not post here - is that The players after poor match may well get behind closed doors bollockings from RM. RM himself may be getting behind closed doors bollockings from his boss (es). Bollockings from the fans happen at the match - some abusive and out of order - others fair criticism. But it all can fester for weeks in international breaks like this. If the players & RM were able to show more connection to the support more often - and we believed it was genuine not token - and especially after a bad match when we need it most - then I hope the overall atmosphere at SMS and away might improve. Better atmosphere will help us win more matches. Players will get EPL salaries next year. Everyone including players and RM suck it up and get the support onside is my message.

No need to apols. I guess depends on what you call choreographed. agree it’s potentially a bit cringe - All that lining up joining hands and running towards the crowd malarkey for instance IS a bit cringe. I’ve seen it done a few times mainly European teams though. But on the continent they do go in for that kind of thing a bit more- the tifo and big displays from support at some matches thing I mean. . BUT running off the pitch tails between their legs giving a token two claps towards us fans after a terrible performance is not a good look either. And I guess that’s the main thrust of what I was trying to say. If they are brave enough to obey rigid tactical orders they are brave enough to face the support at full time. If it’s worth three fist pumps for a win it’s worth a proper apology if they don’t.perform to scratch. Miltonag called it the walk of shame and there’s a bit of truth in that because it’s a big disincentive to not let that happen! We can lose playing brilliantly - and draw unluckily- but rubbish like 5-0 or 1-4 I could have done with the players staying with Russell and essentially apologising for the bad performance. I know what I’m asking is unrealistic though. It’s just to put the idea into someone’s head.

I think that’s a fair question. There’s been times when Baz will look to kick long and fast to Kamaldeen or Sam if they look isolated but in the main we do not break out at pace. With Players like Sam, Kamaldeen and KWP it’s not as if we not got fast runners in team. Going back a few decades I think Danny Wallace practically made a career at Saints out of chasing balls hit over the top and using his speed to either score or get a telling cross in.

I’m confirmed attending. Submitted my question. It’s probably irrelevant to the hate Russell mob and those of the hysterical view that saints in mid table after 11 games is literally THE END OF THE WORLD / SR is the Antichrist but for others of a more balanced disposition it pretty much goes like this ; “The relationship between you, the players, and us the supporters, is worth points each season. We love it when you come over at full time after a win and give your three fist pumps. But, when it’s not such a great result nobody comes out and the fan appreciation is a few token claps before getting away into the changing rooms. Given your heavy emphasis on personal bravery would you and squad consider facing us supporters - on the pitch - win lose or draw - after EVERY match.” It can be choreographed for a win, yeah ok with that , but team must show win lose or draw they are together with us. Running off to the changing rooms is no good. Hope to get to ask that but my reasoning is not because I don’t think players care - they do - but rather it’s try restore collective faith If as supporters our response to players and manager doing so - genuinely facing up and apologising for a bad performance - celebrating with us a win - or somewhere in the middle for a draw, is positive then I can foresee a better bond developing. That could mean points. Promotion. ePl salaries and income again. It’s worth a try

There are some interesting kind of divides happening here amongst some posters on this forum. There are some who feel Russell Martin should be given time to get the team playing and winning every game. And think there has been some progress and some improvement but it’s not been a linear process despite everyone wishing it were. And no, they are not all Russell’s fam or on the staff payroll. I think it’s still a majority. Then there’s those who thought the same but now feel time is up after 12 games ( or so) and he’s got to change it up somehow to a less trendy more winning brand of football. ( a kind of middle ground that most would not disagree with too much I’m guessing, with the exception of - Then there are those who hate the style, feel it’s failed / failing and don’t want it - period. This is a small but vocal minority who mostly realise this means change the Manager, who they secretly or not so secretly despise - which in turn means change how we play for - guess what - whatever style is favoured by whatever new manager and his crew SR get in. But wait, it gets better Rasmussen SR and co are c un ts too . Either way they can’t wait to trash talk the next guy anyways unless he wins every game straight off cos that’s how they (t) roll. It’s all rather sad actually. Nobody has a problem with booing or criticism of Russell or team - least of all him. He’s big enough and ugly enough. Criticise his bollocks off here too. But when it gets personal and nasty - like it has done both at SMS and here online- and in turn to posters “ defending” him and team - well then it slides over into unacceptable abuse. Some don't seem to know or care that there’s a difference between that criticism and that abuse. I’ve got an old MLT VHS tape somewhere and frankly it’s “unbelievable” how you’ve become blind apologists for out of order abusive behaviour . With these it’s pointless trying to discuss this distinction. Those will ( shamefully) carry on abusing RM and team if he & they don’t do what they want. And abusing normal supporters who just want to get behind the team on this forum and who are sick of the constant moaning and naysaying. Saintly regards.

I need to have a look at how Sunderland got the best out of Him - what formations they used and so on. Because IF he is asked to play in the way we ask Che to play I’m not certain we are maximising our chances of getting added value. From him vs. Che. He may convert more on his personal XG but it’s not as if currently Che ( who we have to assume he’s been bought to replace not play alongside) is being put multiple chances on a plate every match in our current style. That being the case I can see that playing RS may possibly be the foot in the door to a more direct southampton playbook. Maybe the “plan B” that RM supposedly does not have - or is it he just did not have the right cf? Not ditching possession style but accelerating it vertically more oftenmay be our next evolution. Think most saints fans be happy with that. And, As Leeds fans used to say “ feed the yak” - to me it’s clear we need to feed our Loch Ness Drogba or not much will change. * * meaning we still need to improve our goalscoring vs chances created.

This should be relatively easy to clear up. Who has access to our EG from last season compared to our EG for this one? Not being able to put ball in back of net IF our EG is higher this season as I’d expect is not necessarily a failure of the “ possession” based system but perhaps has alternate explanation- like absence of a clinical finisher/s, or our players not quite understood what to do in final third. Trying to be as objective as possible as I’m as nervy as anyone about the passing it around the six yard nonsense but it does look like our back four are getting used to the system and so are our mf….ok too slow too slow for some - but I do sense they are getting it. The final and most important piece is ball in the net. We not solved that yet nor will we until our forwards take up better central positions more often- and, crucially, our mf release ball to them quicker and, finally, they kick it in the goals not over the bar or straight at goalie. None of that points to a failure of the possession style - yet - though caveat is if our EG is lower this year of course it’s not working - - though it’s clear for many it’s a lost cause irrespective. I’m not one of those but maybe I’m more patient than most and more optimistic!

Probably Like you and probably many here I used to own “shares” in Saints back in the day. Shares that became worthless. I liked that I owned a part of the club that’s so dear to my heart and which is like family to me. I know it’s ridiculous but even allowing a small amount of fans to buy shares in SFC or holding company whatever its name is would be quite a positive thing. Not to influence anything frankly but just to have an actual physical stake in it.

Entitled to your opinion. I disagree with your description of RM as “ utter incompetence”. I disagree that Manning and Smallbone are absolute shit. I get your overall point- we need and should with this squad get wins not draws or defeats and we must start it now not next year - I thought this would be the case start of season but it’s obvious the progress has been non linear to put it mildly. BUT there is No need for calling me out as “ prick” for not following your views. if that is how you wish to denigrate our manager and our players - and fellow supporters - it’s a free country but I think it’s personally very depressing the amount of abuse Ive received on here for asking fellow supporters to moderate the abuse they give the manager and players.😳 It is endemic in society I guess to demand immediate results immediate gratification and to kickback when we don’t get it. My view,- and there are some who share this view privately but are probably unwilling to get abused by like I’ve been - is that the Manager and the squad need time. And that recent performances DO show we are getting better. You disagree. Fine. But no need for the abusive language.

Strangely, No letting a man run past you without tackle is not courage. Nobody says it is. Nor is Blindly sticking to a losing formula. But seriously Is 7/9 points a losing formula nowadays? This is yet another straw man argument I seem to have spent the afternoon asking people to not misrepresent what I’ve said. Many supposed fellow saints fans having a pop at me for having the temerity to have a different pov and actually saying abusing the staff is not on. I’m not saints staff. If you want to know who I am ask Steve Grant.

Resorting to name calling online is a common last resort of a certain type of person. And all because you disagree with my opinion on the forum. Happy to meet you for a drink and you might change your mind. I’ve supported saints over 50 years and travelled home and away a lot of games. You might be surprised at what I am like versus your ( wrong) perception.

No- yet another straw man argument. This must be some kind of virus. People who pay ££ for a ticket in the belief they are entitled thereby to verbally abuse staff who are there to service and entertain them - I call them vile customers. yiu got a problem with that? What’s your job? Want me to be a customer then Eff and blind at you for your perceived shortcomings in Front of 30,000 others? No? Nothing to do with how much we care either ( and I’m sure we both DO care) I think that an outright player and manager abusive approach - as against expressing displeasure more civilly is simply how decent humans behave. I do not enjoy a winnable match being drawn- but somehow I do not and will not stay silent whilst the baying mob shout out their grotesque hate. Especially when the performance was good in many ways - all overlooked in the blind anger. There are ways to support the team and there are people nasty shouting abuse. because we “ only” drew. As for Vile customers. Anyone who has worked in the service industry knows what I mean.