pap

Lol @ Inquistor Kelv trying to pin slippery eel pap down. There is a thing called accountability. It's one of the prices of a thing called responsibility, which is something you'd implicitly associate with any leader of a country. So, let's skip Thatcher for a bit and put the microscope on Gordon Brown, someone else you've bunged in there to make a semblance of a point. People love to point out the fact that Gordon Brown sold off all the gold shortly after taking office. Who's accountable in that circumstance? Brown, because he was the man who made the decision; Blair - because he signed off on it? Blair may have had his reasons for acquiescing the Brown's call, but ultimately, responsibility lies with Blair, not Brown. You have picked a singularly unsuitable target to argue collective responsibility, btw. Thatcher's greatest strength, her belief in herself and her ideas, was also her greatest weakness. She didn't get the nickname the "Iron Lady" by accident. She repeatedly destroyed political dissent within her own party, crushing opponents. It was her way or the highway. History is littered with the political roadkill she left in her wake. I'd be hard-pressed to name a weaker PM in terms of personal resolve. Blair operated a presidential style of government, but he didn't have things his own way, as the years of pointless infighting over the leadership ensued. Can you think of a Prime Minister who wielded and used more personal power than Thatcher?

And I can see that you've placed no thought into your response. Wow. A whole minute. tbf, that's more time than anyone spends thinking Conservative policy through. Let's hit you on one point on the list ( I know you only have a minute to answer ). 39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders. How's that one feel in this age of recession?

Read the negatives, Kelv - and ask the question again. If that laundry list of sh!te was the cost of saving Britain, the cost was too high.

I seriously doubt it. Not many teams get straight back up at first time of asking, as we well know.

As is your response. C'mon Alps, you're one of the few right wingers on here brave enough to offer up an opinion. Take 'em down if you can.

Yeah, you or others have linked this particular article loads of times in substitution for an independent opinion

Did I, at any point, say these people were murdered because they were Catholics? Nope, I said that the British government colluded in the murder of Catholics, which they did. As you may have surmised, I do like a bit of a debate, but it really helps when people stick to what I've said, and not what they imagine I've said.

Lifted from Nick Cave's Facebook status. Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and polarising politic leader of the last century. This is an incomplete list of why many of us fall on the side that does not regard her with anything other than odium… 1. She supported the retention of capital punishment 2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry 3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws 4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher") 5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out) 6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration 7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership) 8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million 9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands 10. The poll tax 11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad 12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War 13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years 14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS 15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits 16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA 17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control 18. Section 28 19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist" 20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers 21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population 22. She opposed the reunification of Germany 23. She invented Quangos 24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5% 25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister 26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech 27. The Al Yamamah contract 28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet 29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike 30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15% 31. BSE 32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession 33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process 34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa 35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin 36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher 37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion 38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage 39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders. 40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education 41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions 42. 21.9% inflation Most people recognise the massive changes that evolved during the 1980s. However, to ascribe the positive changes to one person, as though they never would have happened in her absence, is laughable.

When Cameron's govt is busy apologising for this, we can take "probably" out of the equation. From the small amount of copy you've posted, it seems as if you're trying to assert that everyone the Govt helped to murder was some kind of bomb-chucker. Where does Pat Finucane sit within this explosive fantasy? Murdered with government help because he represented Republicans in court.

Good post, Frank's Cousin - and one that puts a few things into perspective. Like yourself, I'm far from convinced that what actually happened was the only way to pull Britain out of the mire. I've seen enough posts indicating that the unions held too much sway in the 70s to ignore them, but I don't accept that the permanent destruction of Britain's industry was the only way to achieve it.

Speaking of which.... http://www.spiked-online.com/site/printable/13168/ Your tax payer money, as spent on murder, during Thatcher's era.

Yup. The other side did all the same things. One of the favourite tricks amongst both camps was to kill their own and blame it on the other side. One side had the support of the British state, actively colluding in the murder of Catholics. The other did not. You've done nothing further in your post to convince me that your comments aren't child-like. You really want to use Paisley as an example, a firebrand who's "never" line caused so much suffering in that part of the world? Then you make your comments about Mo Mowlem knowing he was evil. I've read a lot about Mo's involvement in the NI peace process. She broke down barriers by not acting like a mealy-mouthed politician, not by labelling the protagonists in the dispute as evil.

Are you suggesting that we Saints fans are going to get sacked? Fk, and I've been supporting these bastards for free all these years.

McGuinness is the current Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. Adams is TD for Louth. Consequently, the pair of them are politicians with a violent past that have since renounced violence as a means to achieving its ends, and have put weapons beyond use. How would you class them?

Yet another child-like comment from the right. Ooh! Evil man. Everything is black and white for you, isn't it Lord D. You and the small group of people you consider to be like you against the world? If you want to be taken seriously, you might try remembering that under Thatcher's government, the state colluded in murdering Catholics. Better still, you might try imagining being born in a developed country but having the vast majority of your opportunity curtailed because of who your parents are. I'll take your uninformed comments and raise them. I spent 3 years living and working in NI. Even today, the neglect and indifference of previous governments is still visible. You hear stories about how people used to get their jobs which seem as if they're tales from ages past. "If your father worked in the ship factory, you would work in the ship factory". If we adopted your attitude, NI would still be tearing itself apart right now. Thank f**k there are people in this world who can see shades of grey.

Thing is, we're not an industrial superpower today. Thatcher's mission was to destroy the unions. To do that, she chose to destroy the industry underneath them. We still deal with that legacy today. Alexei Sayle's point, about Thatcher removing traditional industry and concentrating on arms and financial services, was a good one. I accept your point about being too young to have any meaningful recollection of the 70s. I wasn't really there; all I remember is getting educated by my grandfather and terrible, terrible wallpaper. So yeah, you'll need to take our comments on that basis, just as I have to defer to the knowledge of those that are older than me. That all said, it certainly doesn't exclude us relative youngsters from being able to assess the impact of her Premiership, in much the same way as I can read about other historical events and draw conclusions about why things happened the way they did afterwards. What is certain is that Thatcher really was the death of nationalised industry, and that Cameron plans to continue her "sell everything off" legacy. You could argue the case for some of these services going private, especially given the poor custodianship of some of those services in public hands, such as the Post Office installing phone lines, or Pickfords being a nationalised industry. However, it's my view that we went too far, and for all the criticism of Brown selling the gold reserves, it's probably worth remembering that Thatcher sold a hell of a lot more during her time in office, including some industries that have no business being privatised.

Was thinking about Saints independent media coverage the other day. Right now, I think we have one podcast out there, which goes out every two weeks. It's a good enough pod, but don't think the chaps that run it have the bandwidth to go weekly. As someone who is in love with the sound of his own voice, I'd naturally love to have a pop. Do you have to know anything about football on these football podcasts?

Love this. Super geeky.

See, that's a good choice for evil left winger (30M people dead as a result of policies). As is Stalin (another 30M dead), or Tony Blair (1m dead as result of lies). And yet, our left-wing Axis of Evil is:- George Galloway (0 people dead) Gerry Adams (at most, 5K people) Ken Livingstone (0 people dead) Joey Barton (1 cigar in eye, 1 people dead if you include sins of the family) Frankie Boyle (0 people dead) Try harder, DPS. These are sh!t evil left wingers.

It is a ridiculous assertion, because you're reducing a series of opinions to black and white, to good vs evil - to us and them - just like a good Thatcher child. Let's go through your little list, shall we? George Galloway has a moustache, is a narcissist and an opportunist, but does he twirl aforementioned moustache in a sinister fashion? What evil acts has Galloway committed? How many people did they affect? You're on safer ground with Adams, but it's still shaky. I can appreciate that you are factoring in his IRA past. Two things on that. First, if I was born in Adams' community and had to deal with the sort of daily injustice that happened during the troubles, can't say that I'd have been pleased. Besides, Adams is now a politician who works through the political process. Have you forgotten how much has actually been achieved since the GFA? Ken Livingstone. Again, I'd apply labels of narcissism to Ken, but evil? C'mon. Joey Barton. Blimey. I'd never thought I'd have to act as an apologist for him, but here goes. Joey's not from a good family. His half-brother and his cousin are both in the 'nick for a racially aggravated murder, which they committed together. I'm well aware of his own nasty moments in front of the beak. You might actually have a case. Thing is, Barton is more "angry new money" than evil. Finally, Frankie Boyle. The comedy equivalent of a shock jock that gets tiresome after a while. Evil? Nah. Funny? Briefly, until you realise that saying the most offensive thing he can is his schtick. Got any more evil left wingers for me to deconstruct?

Are you talking about Heseltine's leadership contest triggering Thatcher's eventual demise? If so, it's not forgotten.

As I keep saying (and people keep on ignoring), NA knew he was going last year. He could have left then to pursue another opportunity. He didn't, got his Premiership chance (half a season) and was sacked. Sacking is never nice under any circumstances. Do you think Martin O'Neill feels any better about his sacking? What about Alan Pardew suddenly replacing Chris Hughton, a more comparable case? Disliked chairman, manager doing ok. The media made a LOT of noise about that when it first happened. No-one speaks about that when discussing Newcastle anymore. It's all about Pardew and his French legion.

Not to mention the sh!thole that Southampton was on a visit a while ago. All the bins were taped up. Rubbish bags everywhere; even Highfield looked a total sh!theap. Tory-led UK government.

If you want to talk Thatcher's legacy, look no further than this site, this government and sort of right-wingers we have now. Cameron continues Thatcher's legacy in fine tradition; a shouty Prime Minister selling off parts of the state, putting the people forever in the hands of private industry. Or the demonisation of the poor. Same trick, 30 years later. The right have no ideas left they can use, and were never very good at thinking the long-term consequences through in any event. They cannot achieve their stated objective of getting people back into work because they, or people like them, moved those jobs out of the country years ago. They're not coming back, because the race to the bottom is a good thing too. With the damage that Thatcher did to the wider manufacturing industry, and the financial services industry being exposed for the "all losses covered" casino that it is, does any right winger think we're going to do anything to address the balance of trade? You think we're going to "capitalist" our way out of this situation?

Agree about the state funeral, or even an official funeral. I find it amazing that we're even considering spending a penny of our money on someone who essentially asset-stripped the national wealth. I also find it amazing that her government basically admitted "nah, we can't make money out of providing utilities such as gas and electricity. We'll sell it off". Highway robbery.