pap

Next you'll be telling us you don't rend raw steak to pieces before growling at your family. Wuss

Are you an octopus?

Went to see Mission Impossible 4 on Boxing Day. Good film, which I've no doubt many will say is the best of the bunch. I really like the first one, but this is definitely the most balanced of them. The action scenes are pretty impressive, although the movie seems like an extended advert for BMWs. Apparently, this might be the last time Cruise plays the lead. It has been reported that Jeremy Renner will be taking the reins in future instalments.

Nice recommendation. Good thread, btw. I happen to think that board games are an excellent way to get the family together. Computer games are fun and all, but the manual element of board games ( i.e. all the farting about with pretend money/dinosaurs/whatever ) provides a lot of opportunity for surreal conversations with your kids

Stubby, Kudos to you for giving a response from the heart. I've made my feelings on religion perfectly clear my responses to you, or my responses to others. I try to remain analytical, and FWIW, I think that there is much to learn from the example that Jesus provided in the New Testament. Indeed, if people had stuck to the teachings of that book, and not try to give Christianity more weight by bundling in the barmy Old Testament or crazy interpretations of what Jesus would want, I doubt that I'd have too much problem with it. Loving your neighbour as if he is your brother is something I can wholeheartedly get behind. I've also changed my opinion on one thing at least. I can genuinely believe that you feel distressed by some of these comments. That said, I think you need to develop thicker skin, especially in a forum such as this. Please don't take this as a criticism, because that's not the way I intend it. We all have to deal with people that we don't agree with on a daily basis. In our personal lives, we have the option of filtering a lot of the nutjobs out, but in work, and especially on Internet forums, and especially football forums, that option was defenestrated a long time ago. See, there is no real entrance requirement to our shared haven save £5 and a presumed love of the Saints. Only the five pound part is verified. That being the case, it has the potential to be an asylum dressed as a chocolate box. You never know what nutter is going to pop out of the box next. Now, I'm happy to concede that Dog's comment about Mary's proclivities was probably conceived to offend. If he was truly interested in the improbability of an immaculate conception, he might have followed MLGs more elegant re-phrasing of the same question a little later on. You should take heart from the fact that most of this thread isn't actually in response to that comment, but to your question as to why the mockery of religious idols falls into a different category from racial or homophobic abuse. I think most people have given you detailed explanations as to why they feel that way. While many have also provided critiques of religion in general, and some have used examples from the Bible to qualify its invalidity, very few of us have tried to outright offend. It is, to be fair, a bloody interesting question - and while it was borne from an indignant reaction to ignorance, I think we've seen some interesting responses. My point? Most people are interested in the debate, not having a go at Christianity. I commend you for adding to it; even though I can't logically get behind anything you say, there's emotional honesty about what you're saying. That's not going to stop me from saying things that you are fundamentally going to disagree with, but it doesn't mean there is no respect.

Don't really have the time for watch collecting. B'dum tsch!

With respect, yes there is. First of all, you haven't always been a Christian. You were not born a Christian, so something must have taken you down that path, be it parental/peer influence. Plenty of atheists are people who were weaned on Christian belief and rejected the ideas within. I used to believe myself. Gradually, as my own understanding of the world came into ever increasing conflict with the absolute truths of the Bible, something had to give. I got to a point where I could no longer reconcile those conflicts. All power to you if you can hold it together in your own head, but you are wrong to say that Christians have no choice. If there are restrictions, they're in your own head. Let's not conflate the validity of Christianity with the question of whether there is a god. Plenty of other religions posit the existence of one or more supernatural beings. You're falling into the cannot prove/disprove conundrum, but you're leaving out convenient details which indicate that the Bible is the work of man instead of the word of God. Let's take Genesis as an example. In that book, the creation of the sun and the moon is described as God providing a light for the day and a light for the night. Now lets consider what we know about the sun and the moon. First, the sun is there all the time, irrespective of whether we see it or not. Next, we now know that the moon doesn't have any light of its own, and is merely reflected light from the sun. The account given in Genesis doesn't even come close to the scientific reality, and there is a big reason for that. Likely, it was written by men who didn't have the scientific knowledge to accurately describe the phenomena of the moon and the sun, and probably not the word of an all-creating God, who certainly would have known that.

Good post, joensuu. You shouldn't have to write it in this day and age, but good post regardless.

Sorry mate, but this is complete bunk. There is no reason to respect the beliefs of others wholesale, and every reason to question them when they seem so incongruent with our own understanding of the world, especially when those beliefs have been catalysts for murder in the past and sources of tension in the present.

If you don't mind me asking, how has this distress manifested itself? Are you having trouble sleeping? Panic attacks? Mental suffering? I think you see the point I'm getting at here. I think you're over-egging your rhetoric when you throw in terms like distress. You may be offended, but I very much doubt that these comments have actually distressed you. I apologise in advance if I'm wide of the mark. Regardless of whether it is distress or simple offense, I don't believe that these forum posts stand alone in causing offense. For them to even register, there has to be an element of doubt on your part. Why? Well, if you're so convinced of the veracity of your faith, what does a bit of background noise on an Internet forum matter?

Are you honestly distressed by the comments that have been made on here?

You are not getting off that easily, son. Why not try addressing some of the points that have already been made or the questions that have already been put to you? For my part, I've attempted to cover everything you've raised. Don't debase this 'debate' further by asking yet another question when you know full well you won't like the answers.

Quite agree, which is precisely why it generated 2 replies ( 1 of which was your own ). So where was that said? It was suggested that Christianity was invented at least 100 years after the events, was a hodge-podge of various pagan legends, etc. I think people have already given this question far too much 'respect', and have answered it directly. How do you determine that the distress is "the same"? Are you gay or black?

Well, I know replying to you directly will fan the flames of a global "not-bothered-ist" conspiracy, but my genuine conviction is that Sergei just wanted to call us all cocks and didn't really expect any follow-up questions

You're not only being pretty dismissive, but you seem to be creating a conspiracy where none exists. Having not received messages from fellow conspirators on how we might dismantle all of Christendom, I can only speak for myself. First, the only reason I got involved in this thread was to point out the obvious differences between the things one can change (faith) with those that someone generally cannot (race, sexual orientation). I know you would like to think that all those who dismiss the supposed veracity of holy texts are in cahoots, but the truth, and something that will scare you much more, is that people arrive at their conclusions more or less independently, and that they have posted their earnest views on here in the same spirit. Next, I don't believe that you think debate is healthy, or not entirely anyway. You seem happy to debate within a certain framework, but somewhat less happy to participate when people choose to remove that framework entirely. I don't agree with MLG on all he says, but I've a lot of sympathy for him when he says religion is "normally an accident of birth into that culture". I'd actually go further myself - I don't see religion as accidental at all. It was carefully cultivated from the outset as a means to create tribalism along non-racial lines. It's a mechanism to create an empire in the mind, transcending national boundaries. It's a hereditary disease passed on from parent to child, causing death and war since time immemorial. Most of all, its a set of uneducated answers aimed at uneducated people created in a time when we lacked the wit to describe the universe we lived in. Right now, the problem that all religions have is that they have been utterly countermanded by the things we have discovered for ourselves. David Cameron calls this a Christian country, but he's wrong to do so. While many of us might respect the traditions that religion has bestowed upon our society, we have no obligation to follow the dogma - or support the views of those that do. That's not being disrespectful. That's making the best use of the information we have to date.

Ok, here is a board game recommendation that not many people will know about. Dominion. Basically a card-game with a lot of ebb and flow. Won oodles of awards the year it was released. Still pretty good now.

You say it is about respect. Perhaps you would like to qualify that statement, particularly as you have vaguely termed the "well represented" as cocks. So let me get this straight. You haven't pulled anyone up individually to challenge their statements, yet you are quite happy to label (again unspecified) people as cocks. Not really a great way to attract respect, in my opinion. I'm not calling you a cock, btw. Just wondering how you can square it all up in your head, because really, that's a rather remarkable thing you just did there.

Because they're not the same things. People cannot change the colour of their skin or their sexual orientation. The 'facts' of Christian belief are highly disputed. However, you need not feel left out. Pretty much every belief system which promotes an imaginary sky lord as the explanation for everything gets an equal amount of respect, at least from me. No, and to be honest, don't think it is a very Christian thing to try and get one's brother into some kind of trouble. Upset? Forgive them - it's what you're supposed to be about.

Happy enough with that. While it would be nice to see a couple of the chasing pack slip up, a good day for Saints fans regardless. 3 more points we don't have to find.

St Mary's in good voice. Is this match on the TV at all?

Ah, very good. I'll just bin my opinion, based on several detailed accounts, in favour of this little nugget - the soul of brevity. The real issue here is who the reverend is. Problem is, the encounter seems to be particularly popular with charismatic churches (the ones that like to speak in tongues, etc). That being the case, isn't it more likely that you are going to have a fundamentalist nutjob at the helm? Whatever. Alpha courses aren't about an introduction to God. They're about an introduction to churches, specifically, the ones who like to run them. I'm not saying they're all bad. How can I? Haven't been to all of them, for a start. However, they are all about evangelism, which is something I think we need to avoid.

Yes, I know many weak-minded individuals that have done the primal screaming at Alpha courses. This is because it's not them that are responsible for the problems in their lives. It's demons. Go to an alpha course, confess all in front of complete strangers and scream your demon out. All perfectly logical. It's what Jesus would have wanted.

Boys - it is 2011. One has more opportunities to entertain oneself than at any point in the past. We are never going to have another "omg - they're putting Star Wars on the telly" moments.

Mate, first of all - very sorry to hear about your prang. Genuinely hope you feel better soon. That said, I can never pass up an excuse to wheel this little number out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCQOCQripBs

Doesn't come around too often for me. I get it cut short every few years, and grow it the rest of the time, despite many non-legally binding commitments to my missus not to do so. She is a wily one, though - I believe she is beginning to see through my plans. Eventually, she gets her best mate around to shear me, and it happens for free.