buctootim

So is lobbying by the unelected for their own special interests a good thing or bad? We wouldnt want any hypocrisy would we?

"Lets vote out and get rid of Johnny Foreigner and all their foreign jobs" is so much more positive.

As opposed to the CBI and BRC

So you're back tracking on the "not all immigration is the same" schtick? Probably wise, as Im sure you know the large majority of non EU immigration is students, followed by family dependants joining people here followed by a long distant third by labour visas.

No. Im knocking back your predjudices with facts and you are trying to shape shift - badly. They're quite different things. Its probably time for the laughing emoji again.

Rather than make people guess what you're saying, be clear about it. Are you saying more people from outside the EU should come here?

Because of reciprocity - the equal right of UK citizens to move to the EU countries - something which doesn't exist for the other countries you refer to.

You seem to be implying migrants from outside the EU are specialist skilled workers the UK needs but migrants from the EU are basic education unskilled workers who depress wages. Interesting idea, you might change my mind if you can prove it rather than just assert it. Go on then post up some stats.

Thats right. We import mostly working age, tax paying people and export to France and Spain millions of retired people who need lots of healthcare. Its not fair, I agree.

Thats the point. They wont. How do we know? because they haven't significantly reduced non EU immigration, which they have the power to do. The majority of immigration comes from outside the EU. Kicking the EU is just an easy target which makes people feel good but deflects from the real issue - the government could reduce immigration but they dont want to, despite all the rhetoric and promises. Nett migration from the EU is relatively minor (the difference between UK citizens living in the EU and EU ciiitzens living here). People are angry about the wrong target, just as intended.

Thats not an EU issue though. All industrialised countries have mass immigration, exactly because it drives the wages cost down. Its the interests of big companies which drives government policy - not the interests of existing citizens. We had mass immigration in the 1950s and 60s before the EU and we have it now. Regardless of what you're told by the politicians before an election it wont change whether in or out.

She's trying to rip his heart out.

Im sure he was a great guy, not sure why he aroused that reaction in me.

I saw this article on the BBC. Some of the Christmas Greetings cards the Victorians sent at Christmas were epic - so random. Barely any tinsel or carol singers in sight. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34988154 Anybody else seen any out of the ordinary cards?

I know that this isnt really appropriate on an obituary thread - but he was one of only two people on telly in the 1970s that made my skin crawl. The other was Jimmy Saville. Im not in any way accusing him of anything untoward, but for some reason he gave me the creeps as a kid.

How does that work then, since shale is more expensive to produce than wellhead gas? http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/07/shale-industry-hibernation-us-economy-fears http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL3N0SF5VM20141020 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/11171270/UK-fracking-faces-bust-amid-Opec-oil-price-war.html

Ha classic. You excuse conflating the separate issues of generation capacity and fracking by introducing another separate issue - employment levels. Once again, to be clear. We need to replace some generation capacity, everyone recognises that. Giving planning permission to frack or its employment levels has zero bearing on that issue

You are conflating two separate issues. The potential shortfall in Britain's electricity generating capacity has got nothing to do with fracking. We get our gas from Norway. Its far cheaper and cleaner than fracking, which has very little to recommend it. If we want to increase energy security then we should invest in more renewables, nuclear and gas storage capacity.

Rhea

He's right though. Regardless of whether SOG is inconsistent or wrong, seeing a bunch of grown men gather together to hound him for a laugh is pretty pathetic and unedifying.

I wouldnt necessarily disagree with that. What I meant to say was was if prices are going to rise again it wont be before a lot of the current capacity is closed.

Whats the problem with that?

But neither fracking or the Canadian tar sands are economically viable at $45 so they will close again soon enough. Thats when the price will rise again.

Strangles

Its a bad move, more of an empty gesture than a real policy. Fracking is not only environmentally damaging, its usually a really expensive way of extracting hydrocarbons. We'll all be on hydrogen or electric in 10 years time anyway so I cant see many people investing in some expensive extraction technique with oil at $45 a barrel and in an old tech industry. Localised production of hydrogen using renewable electricity is where the future is at. http://www.itm-power.com/project/wind-hydrogen-development-platform