Sheaf Saint

Portsmouth train at eastliegh yeah? And the PFA, whose job it is to reepresent the interestd of professional footballers (like a union) have arrived there this morning. I assume that means they have come to discuss what happens when they don't get paid today.

To be honest though, Dubai ain't exactly the model of social perfection either is it! Sounds like a pretty despotic place from what I've heard.

I would have hoped that I had made it crystal clear by now that I understand that perfectly. It's all the people who want to blame the whole of Islam for the actions of this neo-fascist organisation who do not seem to be able to make that distinction and whose understanding I question. What these extremists want is for a 'them and us' culture. They would like nothing more than for all westerners to fear and marginalise all muslims because it suits their agenda. And judging by some of the posts I have read on this thread and on other forums, I would say they are succeeding in getting their wish.

Well considering Jesus is actually one of the prophets in the Islamic religion as well as christianity, I think I can say without fear of contradiction that you were taught wrong. See what I mean about lack of understanding?

So you throw the bleeding heart liberal tag at me, and I throw the knee-jerk reactionary tag at you, and we carry on making generalisations and failing to understand each others point of view. I can see there is no point in us further engaging in this discussion if that's the way it is going to go. I am in the fortunate position of being able to look at it objectively, so I don't think it is for you or me to decide if it is a disgrace or not... it is down to the families receiving it. I have read the letter and FWIW, and I appreciate I am probably going to get flamed for this, despite all of his deluded ramblings, I cannot deny that he does make one or two very valid points. However, I do not expect grieving families to see it that way, and I certainly cannot blame them. Choudary clearly thinks he is doing the world a favour by introducing them to Islam, just like the religious crusades were intended to spread the word of god in the dark ages or whenever it was. If he thinks he is going to get a positive reaction to his letter then he is as deluded as his followers who believe that 72 virgins await them in the afterlife. And this is precisely the point I was making earlier... He has no understanding of our culture, in the same way so many of us have no tolerance of his. As long as that is the status quo, there is no hope for any progress to ever be made.

So are you suggesting we should remove the ROE? I see where you are coming from but I have to question the sense of it. IMO If the military is let loose to do it their way then we will end up with a lot more collateral damage, which will in turn just breed an entire new generation of jihadis intent on wreaking revenge. I think it would be completely counter-productive to what we are supposedly trying to achieve.

But how can you say with absolute certainty that the entire religion (bearing in mind it is estimated there are over 1.5 billion muslims in the world) condones their lunatic fringe? I can tell you with absolute certainty that that is completely untrue. I'm not saying that their views are the only ones that count. Where have I said that? I'm saying that muslims and non-muslims need to understand and tolerate each others' customs and beliefs. Now I'm sure that there are plenty of people on here who will claim that is just pie in the sky, and they may be right, but as long as there exists an attitude of 'well they don't respect our customs so why should we repsect theirs?' then there is zero hope of any progress ever being made. Oh and by the way, I take extreme exception to you accusing me of defending their religion whilst dismissing ours as an irrelevance. Please show me what statement I have made that leads you to that conclusion. You are simply making assumptions about me based on... well, nothing it seems. I await your apology.

I'm not saying I agree with the reaction. I'm just putting forward that had the cartoonist understood the culture he was insulting, he would have known what the reaction would be. Look what happened with Salman Rushdie. Again, I'm not saying it was right or wrong, just that a little understanding in the first place could have diffused a situation before it blew up oput of all proportion. And when you claim that I am defending 'them', without answering my question as to which 'them' you are referring to, I am not defending the extremist nutters who carried the 'death to the infidel' banners, I am defending the overwhelming majority of the world's muslim population who are, in my experience, peaceful people who are being tarred with the same brush as the wahaabi jihadists unfairly by blinkered people who are unable to make the distinction.

I ask you the same as I ask Gingelietiss... Who do you mean by 'they'?

That's a bit of a generalisation isn't it? Who's 'they'? My point being that had that cartoonist known just how inflammatory his cartoon would be and how much of a backlash it would cause, he might have thought twice about it. Unless of course he did know, and an extreme reaction was his aim in the first place.

And so the cycle of misunderstanding continues. If you understood the muslim culture in any way you would understand why that particular action was deemed so offensive. The cartoonist might as well have accused every musilm in the world of being a pig-loving whore. And while some of the reaction to it was extreme (we all saw the 'behead those who insult Islam' banners), there was always going to be a massive backlash to it. With a little cultural understanding and mutual respect, the whole situation could have been avoided.

Well he has already been kidnapped twice and had two fatwas issued against him (which were both subsequently overturned by senior clerics who fully support what he is trying to achieve)

I'm not so sure we really had much of a chance. The Taliban only seized control of Afghanistan in the late 90s, and we invaded in 2001.

Are you familiar with the work of Greg Mortenson and the Central Asia Institute? I recently read Three Cups of Tea which is the true account of his fight to overcome the influence of the madraasas in the Karakoram and the Hindu Kush. In just a few short years, hundreds - even thousands - of these madrassas popped up while he, with the blessing of the Pakistan government, was attempting to build secular schools for all of the deprived children - specifically for girls - in the region. If you haven't read it then you should give it a go. It has taught me more about the politics and the religions of that part of the world than any other book/video has since the whole issue came to the world's attention in 2001.

You could make it up... But it wouldn't be as funny!

Yep, that pretty much sums it up for me as well.

I say let them do it. It's all being orgainsed by that Choudary chap who is just a publicity-seeking moron. Let him have his five minutes of fame and just ignore him. I imagine though that the police will have their work cut out that day, because it seems pretty obvious that the EDL or others will most likely turn up to wreck the whole thing. Could get messy.

Sounds like we are leaving the back door wide open again though.

Damn!

Hopback's finest :smt023

In which case their financial affairs need to be thoroughly investigated, because there can only be one reason why they would do this and that would be to disguise the state of their finances. Not for the first time, something very fishy is going on at PFC.

Drinks in town with a couple of friends followed by a house party to see in the new year. Hopefully I won't be quite as ill the next day as I was last year!

Road Rash & Road Rash II (Megadrive) Rambo (C64) Sensible Soccer (Megadrive) Wipeout & Wipeout 2097 (Playstation) There are loads more if I can be bothered to think about them. And to Ponty I would say that although graphical capabilities are so much better now than ever before, and will obviously continue to improve, graphics aren't everything. It is ultimately how playable a game is that defines how good it is.

Not sure if it is still there but when me and a few mates went in about 1994 there was a Medieval Torture Museum, somewhere on the main drag between Dam Square and the Leidseplein. Worth checking out, if you're into that sort of thing.