Saintandy666

There would have to be a Referendum on removing the Monarchy, and I imagine whoever instigated it would lose a lot of votes with those staunch Monarchists that still exist, so we won't have a say for a long time until the Monarchy are truely truely unpopular, which they aren't at the moment, largely thanks to the respect the Queen carries.

I think I agree with 1976_child... on respecting that the Queen does a good job, but that job needn't be done. It's probably about time we had an elected head of state, though I'm not in any massive hurry, as there are more important constitutional issues to deal with first. However, it does make me laugh how they say this change reflects the modern country we have become, when we are talking about the Royal Family.

Hmmmm, it depends whether we want to run our finances on moral grounds or economic grounds. Times are tight and money is low and I know which way my heart would want this to go, but I also know the general attitude which would mean a better and more efficiently run service, which after all is what the Tories are bleating on about. It's a tough call.

I still think most people are bloody fickle and when it comes to the election they will either vote exactly the way they always have down tribal lines, or based on whether they and their family have a job and an alright life. I don't think most people care about Europe that much at all. When people are questioned about what issues matter to them, it doesn't even come in the top 10 nationwide. Of course a few people might switch, but it won't make much difference in this voting system, and a lot will pussy out due to tactical voting. Also, remember that people, politically, have short memories often.

Welcome to the dark side.

They closed it, in my opinion, because they want them gone for political reasons... not because of health and safety! They could open their doors if they wanted to. Edit: Also, the issues facing people up and down the country that the protesters represent are more important than St. Paul's Cathedral in my opinion.

The church could be open if it wanted to be, it's closed for other reasons in my opinion. The protesters have spoken to the London City Health Safety organisation people and they said there wasn't any risk, so make of that what you will... Also, to be honest, this issue goes beyond a building(how magnificent that building is), and I think this is the kind of protest that wherever you are, someone will have an objection, so best just to stick it out.

Perhaps that has been a weakness. But what they want is the return of proper social democracy and fairness. Just look in the US where someone like Warren Buffet pays less of a percentage of his income as tax than an ordinary worker. They want proper regulation on the financial sector, and to tame the excesses of capitalism.

I don't really get how this weakens their argument... it's a bit nothing to do with anything. Address their arguments if you want to defeat them. Also, the Starbucks point is irrelevant. Most of them don't actually want to abolish capitalism, they just want to reform and change it as they believe in the current form it is broken and unfair.

You are wrong on some points here. Nick Clegg supports an in/out referendum as times of substantial change to our relationship with the EU... like the Lisbon Treaty etc. This is CLEARLY stated in the Lib Dem manifesto! So they will only be 'hypocrites' if they vote no to a referendum when the next treaty comes. But in fairness, this is coalition, and the David Cameron and his Tories won't let the Lib Dem's vote for a referendum as they so passionately believe in.

That is very sensible actually, the cost point. The only reason Sarkozy is like that though is because we've been so critical of Europe, yet our actions are wanting to be in it. If we just fully committed. Us, the German's and the French would be the leading 3 nations in the EU bloc.

Okay, that's the theory. I just wonder how happy the rest of the EU members would be about that. Getting out of the EU would be extremely complex and costly and would take a couple of years probably. I agree with Nick Clegg this morning, we should be leading Europe, not leaving it!

If we wanted to be in the single market still, we'd still have to abide by a lot of EU law surely? The other members wouldn't just let us pick and choose....

You're right, the EU isn't ridiculously complicated(at least the basics of how it is run and what laws come from it etc), but people still don't get it. And a lot of that is because of sensationalised statements made by certain black topped tabloids. A lot of people still don't seem to realise the difference between the ECHR and the ECJ which doesn't bode well.

True true(I have laboured it, but it's important to this issue), but the e-petitions only mean a debate(if approved by business committee), not the law into action. Personally, I quite like the system that they have in some countries that if enough people sign up for a referendum on an issue(say 10%), it is triggered. Actually a UKIP policy from the last election(albeit 5%). And I agree with you, the system needs wholesale change. Comapred to other countries like say the US, we have little say in how our country is actually run.

We don't live in a direct democracy though. I'm all for referenda, but we don't live in a direct democracy, we live in a delegate based representative democracy. We elect our governments to get on with it, and if we are annoyed we get to vote them out. That is sadly the case in our democracy, and there is no protection in our country from anything. If parliament voted tomorrow to abolish all rights, it would be put into action(the supreme court is a charade at the moment). That would never happen in the US. But I've gone off the point. Basically, the MPs who voted against aren't cheating the system or anything, they are keeping to the system. If we want more referenda(and are big pros and cons) as the norm we need to change the system. Also, the Liberal democrats abstained from that vote.

Excellent post, and yes, my point was there are strong state identities still as well as America's famous patriotism! But that is all in the mind. Never realised quite so many Texans wanted to secede. Sent from my HTC Hero using Tapatalk

And on my EU/American parallel earlier... of course most Americans now consider their country BEFORE their state now, but surely/maybe it wasn't such a clean cut affair 250 years ago(historians correct me here)! What's to say after 250 years of a 'U.S.E', that wouldn't be the case then? All hypothetical of course, and I'm not saying whether I want a U.S.E or not. Remember, Nationalism is a psychological phenomenon which exists largely in peoples heads. As Benedict Anderson said, Nations are 'imagined communities'. What's not to say that a government can't slowly shove a new one into people''s consciousness? Nation-building isn't new. And I'm not necessarily supporting this, jus' sayin.

In fairness, Clegg said there should be a referendum when the next big change comes... which might not be so far away.

You might want to delete that 'I am here' thing... basically reveals where you live.

111 against... how many rebels though? Edit: I guess most of them are rebels though, as all 3 main parties whipped... but the Tory rebel number is the interesting one!

I admit that obviously those Americans I have met(and I have met many who say they are American) who said state over US are the exception, and I am obviously wrong. But there's no need for people to raise their blood pressure over it. Edit: Bear in mind I never said most Americans!

I know I'm young and there are many areas where my knowledge is deficient, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed an opinion... which will be more informed in some areas than those older than me, and less informed in other areas. The way to deal with that isn't the way a lot of older people do. And you wonder why young people are ****ed off at the moment.

You're right. It's impossible that I have ever met anyone from the US. Forgive me.

Why can't everyone just keep nice and civil? It's an internet forum... I can only speak from my own experience of those people I have met, and even if that is wrong there's no need to go on the attack.