up and away

For once Crouch is actualy doing the wisest thing, irespective of his personal views at this time. If he did start the mud slinging, he would be buried for a month of Sundays, so what we have is this forced truce. If he's smart he will keep his head down and mouth shut and sneak in to collect the bits. With our current financial predicament he would not be able to do anything without administration cancelling out those contracts and losses that are pulling us down at the present. Unless of course that promised investment by Fulthorpe miraculously appears out of thin air. Crouch knew all these hard decisions had to be made (players, sections of the ground, job losses), but spectacularly backed away from them because he knew how unpopular they would be. Just look back at the denial of the excs statement that players would have to be moved on, or the implied denial over the early settlement of the Walcott deal.

I don't get it nick. He has 'input' into who plays but not where they play? It all makes sense if the input that Lowe is having is purely from the financial standpoint, something he should be doing. I don't know what the exact position is now, but at the beginning of the season JP was told that several players were available to move on, of which the majority must be cleared to give us any chance. I believe JP alone took the decision to base his team around those players he knew would be staying and those with a good chance of still being here. As the windows close that view can change, but if the only option to keep us afloat is to try and force players to leave by hook or by crook, then so be it. What a lot fail to realise is the extent of the mess we are in, with many feeling that we have flexibility as to the way forward. With the shfting sands of our own financial position, coupled with what has happened globally has made our position considerably worse than when the initial formulae was hammered out with the bank. The failure to regain capital from player sales iniated trying to offset the debt, by further reducing the wage bill over a longer term to cover this sum. Then add in a reduction in gate receipts and you have a further offset to try and account for. The bank are definitely not happy with the situation they find themselves in, but for some reason seem reluctant to pull the plug on a football club, but would not give a second thought to any other business. I have no problem with the desions being made at the present, considering the position we are in. Obviously it's not pleasant to have to take this medicine, but it has to be done. These decisions have to be made just to give us the slimmest of chances, someone has to do it, but many are fixated upon the fact it is Lowe. What would you prefer, someone who failed to make any unpleasant decisions and hide from their responsibilities, because that is exactly how we got where we now are.

Glad something managed to bring the smile back to your face!

Do you believe that throughout all of this, if Lowe was asked to side with Wilde or Crouch to make the execs toe the financial line to leave something for the future it would not have been done? You really are an idiot of the highest order, clearly depicted by your previous stands which you now try to distance yourself from. So according to you Lowe would never of agreed to cut costs and sort the mess out, despite stating and acting in this manner consistently from the beginning. The only reason the execs did what they did was because enough share holders never stood up against the line they were following. They were just given the remit to help Burley as much as possible with what could be afforded. No long term plan or worry over the future, just here and now. If Crouch or Wilde did not agree with this they could easily have done something about it, as we saw when the execs were removed, but that would mean agreement with Lowe. This is a sad state of affairs where everyone has been more concerned with petty battles than what is best for Saints, you epitomise that stance perfectly.

Not a clue. Of course it was the out going execs. That was their price for sliding away quietly with their work bigged up, not only by the OS but your rosy cheeks as well. It's very simple, you employ someone to do a job and they put in an average performance to your requirements. Just because you realise 6 months down the line you needed something completely different, it's no fault of the employees. What scare story (or in anyone else's book the truth) or are you so dim witted you cannot see what is going on now? Once again this was obviously changed at the behest of someone in authority at Saints, any idea who? This was the price of silence, but this is all to difficult for you. I suggest you get a 6 year old to explain it clearly for you.

Imagine in your line of business that you had got yourself into a difficult position and had to work alongside idiots of the highest order. Then throw in the fact they were not necessarily trying to help what you wanted to achieve, plus a fractious atmosphere. And all you wanted was to get out of this with the possibility of future employment elsewhere. Dulieu and Hone knew they were going at the AGM, they did not care anymore, they had enough of the muppets and this was their parting shot. They knew the SISU deal was never going through, although they would have been happy to take a bonus or further year’s salary out of it. All they wanted to do was leave with their business credentials in some sort of shape to enable them to find employment in the future. You have to remember that the initial action they took in believing Wilde regarding forthcoming finance, made them look total chumps in the business world. Their beds had a large Satan’s coil between the sheets and they had nowhere else to sleep. It was either clean the mess up and make the best of a bad job, or hit the streets and find a suitable doorway. Just look at the parting statement hashed together (along with their compensation) that gave them credibility back in exchange for silence. If you read through this, you will find out exactly what everyone’s position was and why. http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/search/?mode=movenav&page_id=9450 The Company would like to place on record its sincere appreciation of the excellent results achieved both collectively and individually by Ken Dulieu, Jim Hone and Andy Oldknow. By contrast, throughout their time together within the Company, the Chairman, Departing Executives and the remaining Executives (being Lee Hoos, Operations Director and David Jones, Finance Director) (the "Remaining Executives") have stood united in their pursuit of a prudent business strategy which has delivered highly creditable results in extremely challenging circumstances. What total ******(although some on here keep quoting these figures as good), they had sold all the family silver, with just a couple of teaspoons remaining for the entire household to deal with the Sunday roast. Dulieu and Hone could now walk out with their reputations in tact having ticked every box regarding investment and finance during their time at St Mary’s. It would not surprise me that these quotes were included in their resumes for future employment. You will also notice that “the club has to sell players in January” has now been replaced with “Whilst the Company is under no immediate financial threat, continuation of the prudent financial regime established by Ken Dulieu and all of the Executives will be necessary to maintain financial stability.” Would anyone like to comment on what happened to that “continuation of the prudent financial regime” and why we are now on skid row? If you go back over everything that happened during this period you soon see how we ended up where we are now. Those that created and nurtured that environment are at fault for the position we now find ourselves in. If at any time they had stopped and asked themselves “What is best for Saints”, we would not be in this position now. But they were all consumed with their petty arguments to notice the hangman’s scaffolding going up around St Mary’s.

I have no love for the past execs and I doubt anyone else would have appointed them, but lets look at what actually happened and on that I cannot find much wrong with their actions. When they realised the initial over spend instigated by Wilde was not to be backed up by outside finances I imagine they were furious. For company executives to place a company in this position, as good as much leaves their future job prospects at zero. It was a close run thing at the time whether they resigned or tried to fix the problem. Fixing the problem entailed Wilde being out of the way and being allowed to bring the finances to some sort of order so they could leave with a chance of finding employment elsewhere. Well with Wilde out the way, pikey Ted Rodgers looked at his stack of shares and everyone else’s round the table, so who was in charge now? The rows that went on during that period are infamous and set the tone for the period to come. The exec’s main concern was just getting the finances back to ground zero whilst others believed the football side should have priority, even if the execs fell foul of the regulations or their prospective careers. We then had the master stroke of trying to install Thompson as chairman, which led to the other major shareholders being polled as to if they wanted Thompson as chairman and the direction of the club. Wilde sided with the execs and that was that. We then had the famous speech referring to Paul Allen, “Why should it not be him and why should it not be us” speech to the press, which left only two of the execs conducting any take over talks and the rest further isolated. So to set the scene you now virtually had two groups who hated the sight of each other and contact would more than likely start WWIII than any meaningful dialogue. So the execs were to support George Burley as much as possible within the financial constraints of the cash flow. There was no real direction with the exception that once the financial buffers were in sight the foot went on the brakes. I don’t believe the execs were the best thing for Saints at that time as there was no long term plan, but that does not mean any other set of execs would have been any different given the mandate and the hostile atmosphere things were being conducted in. Towards the end I really doubt if the execs cared any more and it showed, but I doubt you would have got a significantly different attitude from any other group subjected to the same events and emotions. Throughout all of this no one has stood back and thought, “What is best for Saints?” With everyone caught up in his or her own battles and egos. Eventually Wilde realised how severe things were and for him, made what must have felt was the biggest decision he had made, siding with Lowe for the sake of the club. If Crouch had done likewise we would have had the best chance possible, but he was hunkered down in the bunker waiting for Olga to come knocking. Throughout all of this time if anyone had sided with Lowe and got the execs to set the finances onto a long-term strategy, it would have been done. An environment was created such that the unholy mess we now see before us was spawned and nurtured. It is how supposed adults allowed things to reach this state that is the biggest crime, all believing they were doing the best for the club, whilst singularly ruining it. I notice you mention Euell, but Saga slips quietly by there. Any reason?

If at any time Crouch or Wilde had said to the execs to get the costs under control, it would of had to have been done, because it would of represented the largest share holding. Or do you still believe that Lowe / Cowen would not have insisted upon cuts? Crouch has been in this up to his neck and if you are worried about Euell's salary, get a look at some of the loans. There may well be some distancing from all of this as the fan takes delivery, but he has been in there up to his neck.

Trouble is Wes, that despite all the posts on here suggesting that if Lowe was to sell his shares, everything would start looking up, there is absolutely no evidence to support that. Its equally probable that with someone else in the Chair the club will still be facing relegation and financial meltdown. Lowe wasn't on the board last year when we sank to bottom spot. So......, much as the depressive atmosphere is understandable, there really is no easy way to save a club that has expoenditure exceeding its income. A different board would have exactly the same problems. What so many fail to understand is that the footballing side will not have that great a bearing on our immediate future, administration is coming and that shadow will cause every thing to go into melt down. I can see it now with the usual muppets lined up to know why Lowe never got rid of and sold more players than we have. As for the other idiots who feel Crouch will ride in to save the day, he needs administration to cancel out all those debts and wages that he spectacularly help create and failed to do anything about. They have all known of these losses for so long but have consistently buried their heads, now it will be us down there with them. Just remind me again what was so wrong with the statement issued by the execs, when they said we had hit the end of the road and needed to sell players. but not to worry, throughout all this time we have had true Saints fans on the board in Leon, Mary and Lawrie looking after our welfare. Lowe may well be a ****, but at least he is not a stupid ****.

You are more than likely correct, but it may turn out to be an option in very desperate times.. We have this millstone around our neck in the form of players salaries (still). If we get them coming back onto our books in January things look very bleak. Administration is to be avoided at nearly every cost imaginable but one. If we look nailed on to either slip into administration or go down, it may well be better to bring the inevitable forward to this season than to the next. That could give you the opportunity to get things sorted well before the next season took off, rather than during. Staying up last season was vital as it gives us a chance to blood the youth, such that they shall be far better prepared next season, what ever that may bring.

With supporters like yourself we are truly blessed. You can put the blame for relation at the feet of Lowe, but any idiot cannot see that we have had more than enough time and money to avoid being in our current position. It must be a marvel to you how all these other teams exist in the CCC, even without that massive windfall in players fees and parachute payments we have received.

What a total load of ******. Lowe has made his mistakes, but there is nothing in the last couple of years that does not belong to Wilde and Crouch. Who are you going to blame when we go into administration? Lowe for not getting rid of more players than we have already? The damage has been done already by these risky ventures and you reckon we should double up? You really should get yourself round to gamblers anonymous for some shock therapy, because all we have done over the last few years is gamble with our future until we have virtually ****ed it away. How we are still surviving is beyond most and our only slim hope lies with that thin thread to the bank. And any idiot that thinks Crouch will ride in to save the day is sadly deluded. He would still have the same problems and require administration to get rid of those players who's wages we cannot afford.

Nope don't believe that. Why did we spend 1.25 m on a teenager? why did we sign the likes of Holmes, Wotton, Perry, Cork, Pekhart, Smith, Gasmi, Robertson etc if we are so skint? It's total ********, ridiculous decisions which will cost the club. Then like any other person who cannot afford to pay the mortgage, go to the bank with that sort of plan and you will come out looking at suitable doorways to sleep in. You have to show the banks that there is some sort of possibility in the short term to be able to manage costs. Lose that confidence and it's all over there and then. Any other company would have been put to the gun a long time ago, but for some reasons football clubs lead a charmed life in this respect. I don't believe it matters now because things have got so bad, coupled with an economic climate which is difficult to comprehend. If we manage to get out of this it will be a miracle, but I see little other option.

I think everyone is. Even those that could bother to figure out this would be happening are equally shocked. Knowing it will happen and actually seeing it happen can be two very different experiences. This has been common knowledge for such a long time (since the execs stated we would have to sell players in the window) and yet still so many can't figure out where this has come from. Who's dumb enough to say the exec's were over exaggerating the position now? We should not be in this position, but gross mismanagement of our finances and avoidance of reality placed us in this position a long time ago. We will get what we deserve and a lot of fans can't be arsed to do anything about it, so be it.

All the shocking decisions have come and gone a long time ago. What we have now is the baliffs coming in to take the sofa and TV, leaving us with garden funiture and the radio. Too late to moan about it now, if you cannot figure out this would happen you really have been living in make believe.

10s of millions has to mean at least 20 million plus, which is a joke. Be so good as to justify that claim, or please desist from gross exageration, lest it weakens the validity your assertions any more. We know that Wilde was supposed to be looking for outside investment the first time around and we also know that Crouch was too. What we do not know is whether Lowe and Wilde together are seeking investors. On Lowe's past record, I'm thinking not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if as you claim Crouch presided over a situation whereby we were living beyond our means, then surely the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the the PLC's Financial Director, David Jones, who has been the one constant through the turmoil of the past few years. Dave Jones, why would any idiot bring him into the equation unless you are Cherry Pester? All Dave Jones does is adds up the figures, shows what's gone out, what we can expect in and what will be going out. As long as the figures presented are accurate, there is nothing more you can demand from the bloke. If you are going to blame Dave Jones you may as well throw in the abacus or calculator you have used along the line, even when it's giving you the correct figures. Just because idiots ignore the figures, believe the take over fairy or the figures are not too bad if you squint at them, has nothing to do with Jones. As for losing all the money, that is as plain as a pikestaff. Just add up all the revenue we had / could of had from player transfers and see where it went and what we have left of value from that. What we have seen done this season with bringing in the youth players was done ages ago with the other teams that came down with us. Then we could have had a sustainable business plan with old heads married with the young pups to give us a real chance. Other clubs never even had the transfer monies or even the parachute, but it is us who are favourites for administration.

How to get the best out of Skacel? This is a difficult one and I am not sure there is an answer we can find. It is obvious Saints want him off the books and he well knows that, equally he has done himself no favours because of his dislike of training. When he came to us he was unfit and more than happy to live the good life, such is the nature of the man. I am not sure we can replicate his terrific form with Hearts, where he was virtually given a free role some where on the left. He does not have the pace to hurt defenders and relies at arriving at the right place and right time. He can do it as all Hearts supporters know, but not with us or Hertha. If Burley could not repeat the feat, I really doubt others will have much success and we will just have to make the best we can from the situation, what ever that is?

And not a word about how we got into this mess. Anyone can see administration coming and the only way out of that will be by selling what ever assets we have to avoid it. Not a single word regarding Crouch and his financial master plan to just sit and wait on any idiot that has found his kids piggy bank, whilst we wasted 10's of milliions on a set up we could not afford, because Crouch did not have a clue.

I admire your optimism, and I too would be optimistic if I felt that Lowe might change things, but his stubbornness will at least see him sticking to the current plan until end of the year. Unless things change I think we will be already relegated before the last day. Sure, there are 4 teams currently below us which suggests their form is worse than ours. But then look at our fixtures so far, and who we have beaten. My forecast is based on the supposition that we have not yet faced many good teams - we certainly still have to play Wolves, Sheff Utd, Reading twice. Who have our victories been against? Derby, had not won a game of a year, they have since and are now 10th in the table. Norwich, who thankfully are 1 place below us still and also deeply in trouble like ourselves. Doncaster, still finding their feet at this level, but I would suggest likely to turn it around once the threat of relegation becomes real. I know we still have to play Forest, but on the evidence of Saturday I think we would struggle. Watford were the worst side I have seen, they had a wobbly defence, and a suspect keeper, but we failed to pressurise them, and they clearly decided in the 2nd half to conduct a defensive training session in preference to increasing thier goal difference. To be given 2 penalties, and still not be able to take advantage, is a huge confidence and moral threat. We have also won only 1 of 6 home games, if that is not relegation form I don't know what is. 2 big defeats on the bounce, and with tough games to come. I agree the form book shows us 20th, but you have to look further than that, is there a trend emerging? I guess we will not know until a couple more games, maybe the lads will shock us by getting a result tomorrow, but I won't hold my breath. There is still time to change things, and of course it goes without saying I hope we do, but I walked out of SMS on Saturday feeling that I had seen the worst team ever and thoroughly dejected. To hope that the return of Euell will be our trump card is to be honest clutchin at straws. I hope I'm wrong and will be the first to pat you on the back (metaphorically) if you are proved right. I am not sure how the season will end and can see both points of view. I said before the season started, when I assumed Pearson would still be here, that in reality we would be very lucky to escape relegation. Knowing what was coming and actually having to sit through it are two completely different things. I would be delighted just to scape past relegation this season, hopefully being stronger for the next season. I don't feel we had much latitude in the direction we took under Lowe, because of the financial damage already done. The accounts should confirm that to the rest of the fans along with how far we have come to addressing our problems. Realistically things do not look bright unless we can get modest investment in, despite the recent assurances from Wilde. But, if we can get through this season, what we have done will give us a real chance for the future.

Well fill your boots here. A £ to a pinch of euro he will be back here pretty soon and those of us that saw him last season, can start the familiarisation process all over again. We never lost a game Saga started under Pearson? get a grip! More than likely had more to do with Mrs Pearsons lucky pink undies than anything else. John does not look interested but scores goals, Saga does look interested and does not score goals! So which are you plumping for? If you go to enough games and keep thinking this will be the game and gradually that feeling will drift away. I don't think you sat through enough of those games and are still living on the magical glimpses we saw when he arrived at St Mary's. I am not saying Saga is useless, just he has had enough chances and has not delivered. If you dig a bit further back to Saga's time in France you will see a very similar story, this is not a one off. My comment about Rasiak may well be pointless, but then equally so is yours. It's academic, the player is injured.

Are you Crouch's financial adviser? You start off with stating we desperately need a striker that left us that still is not scoring and a defender who is still out injured. Then you double up with Euell, Skacel and John who we have been trying to sell or loan to any mug within earshot and you are asking why we are still paying their wages! Yep, something is very strange.

Davies may well be still injured, however I doubt he will stay that way all season. Saga has at least one goal so far and is being regularly selected by a team in the Champions League. I'd have him over DMG if I am honnest. Rasiak wouldn't have broken his shoulder if he was still here, on account he wouldn't have been playing in that match and wouldn't have been involved in the challenge that caused the injury. In any case, I doubt Lowe got rid of him because he knew he was going to injury his shoulder. Correct decisions I think not. God, get a partial grip on reality at least. Saga is still just as bad and would not improve matters, Davies is totally academic and knowing our luck, Rasiak would have been injured earlier. There is one common denominator in the players leaving, getting fees or wages off the books. If someone had come in for John instead, Saga may still be here but that would have been the worst result of the two. Why you place this cult status upon Saga is beyond belief, he has not done enough to lace John's boots. With Saga you always come away thinking it will be the next game, but after a season if the penny has not dropped, it never will.

I reported first hand a conversation I had with Fulthorpe - none of it was gossip and I would reckon that most on this forum were interested in what I reported. That is the whole point of a forum. Now because what Fulthorpe told me hasn't come to fruition it is not my fault. I remember at the time I added a health warning, but what I reported was 100% kosher. You might not like my posts but if you posted something as tenth as interesting it might give you more right to throw your toys out of the pram. So you reported a first hand conversation? The fact is has been dragging on for so long without any sign of fruition makes you believe there is any substance behind what he says, just your opinion? You seem perfectly happy to accept his word after god knows how many false dawns and you do not accept the possibility that all you are doing is moving on gossip? So going back to your original stance that you do not pass on gossip, it is just your opinion, you have no proof and facts actually point in the opposite direction?

This just gets better and better. "I would not post idle gossip", then wtf was that meeting with Fulthorpe that you spread all over the site then? As someone else has alluded to "I gather the players are increasingly unhappy at some recent training mandates (originating from Lowe) which they feel are over the top." Exactly how does this tie in with the players being given 3 days off to rest and recover last week? So what's next, Lowe has banned training?

Factually correct Steve, but you and I both know he was unofficially involved behind the scenes long before relegation and I hear (not from the source you might think) his training methods are now being invoked by Lowe and it is causing unrest in the camp. Believe me, you know the square root of fook all. SCW had absolutely no influence over what happened to us in our relegation season, you are just making things up to suit your agenda. Even when he did come later, he went and spoke privately to Redknapp to get his acceptance before coming in. Both Lowe and Wilde are hardly at the club, even rarer at the training ground.