up and away

You had the fee plus the small fact he was absolute rubbish when he first came to Saints, compounded by the fact he kept his place no matter how many howlers he made. The only thing to change that round is to put in good, consistent performances which is what we have seen from him this season. It's not rocket science, put in crap performances and the fans don't think you should be in the team. Exactly the same thing happened with Drew for a long period last season, but fortunately fans got to see a lot of the good before he went off the boil and he should not have been included in the team for that period.

I was thinking along the same line, then take into account all that we have missing through injury and I believe fans are right to get carried away. When you looked at the team we had on the pitch at kick off, it was difficult to see us getting a result with such a weakened team of youngsters. Full praise to the kids, management and the couple of pensioners at the back for putting in a performance. A special mention must go to Kelvin, really has been a different player this season. Early days on Robertson, but he did give the impression he could make JP's system work as the lone striker. Lot of very good points came through, AL is class and Lancashire looks like he could dig us out of the hole at the back in time. We won't get into the play off's, but we have a good chance of getting out of jail. If we can then retain the neucleus of this squad, there is hope for the future.

And, as if by magic, the 20 posts following my insightful analysis above only serve to prove my point. Nice one Trousers. You're the man of reason and we all hail the footpath of integrity upon which you trudge. You definitely deserve a biscuit. Not sure if it's for starting the fire, putting the fire out, or circumnavigating the globe to get the water.

Really misses the point as well. So many have heard similar that it should not really raise an eyebrow. But there is definitely a track record for bull****ting in there, though not from longshot.

You can forget the original plan, that will never see the light of day. What I believe we can expect is some form of activity the closer we get to administration or beyond. But I cannot see enough funds to even get us back to our current footballing position.

So are you saying that JP played Killer, and refused to sub him, knowing he would break down and would then be out for a while?? Surely there's an easier way of not playing Killer at the weekend: Jan: "Mikey, we go with the young defence giving us high pressure attack defending for the important vital game, so yu will have to sit out Saturday. You're still in my brain dreams, so get your muscles fit and we can use you for the special match." So now you think we have a manager that grinds his players into the ground as opposed to not selecting them:rolleyes::rolleyes: I am sure your village must be missing you, as i can't believe they have another of your calibre.It seems obvious to anyone with even limited intellect that JP decided to play Killer against Rotherham, knowing fully he would not be available for Doncaster. "Michael Svensson will not play on Saturday because he gave us his all again on Tuesday and now he needs to train in time for next week. Last time he came back in it was too early, so he needs two or three training sessions to be sharp. Michael is a top player so we will give him the time that he needs." Tie that up with the amount of times JP has stated that Killer cannot play 2 games a week and even you should be capable of finding your way home.

Looks like a good move and JP is being diplomatic here. JP has consistently said that Killer cannot play 2 games in a week. Everyone and his dog knew that beforehand, so either JP has had a total moment of madness along with everyone around him, or he preferred not to play Killer in the league at the weekend. Then the added fact that he could have subbed him at any time and it looks even more deliberate. Going by everything we have seen so far, I believe it is the correct decision.

No we were cutting back first season down as your figures ably show.That was in GB's remit. Of course as has been said many times before if you get rid of over 20players you have to replace some positions with lower paid players.That was starting, Yes Rasiak was purchased (I believe at too high a cost and salary,a mistake by Lowe??? or was he bought in the interim period and the contract sorted out after.The timescale I dont know.If it was under Lowe it was a mistake). The new people arrived on a populist vote and wanted to prove their claims and went on a buying spree.GB must have been delighted.Pleae do not try and convince me that RL would have sanctioned such spending because I really dont go with that.He did say he had a war chest but not a £7m one. The signing of Fuller for 90k underlines how RL was trying to get things in order and to try and streamline the club for the CCC. I do agree though it would have been folly to dismantle the PL setup straight away as we may have gone straight back up and so a balancing act was to be carried out. The 2nd season the brakes came off the spending and we went to town.No prudence what so ever and big contracts dished out in PL proportions. So if you can forgive that and then we failed in that crucial 2nd season surely you concede the 3rd was time to forget the dream and get practical.Slash the squad of the high wages then and get ready for the long haul, use the last payment to stabilise not turn a blind eye and hope things will be OK. You ask the odd question 'Why do you think we are now cutting back?' Is that question for real? It is obvious to me, because we are so in the mire as we didnt take action 12 months ago or even before. We can clearly see that if the youth were brought in far early, married to the senior help they could have received from the finances we should have had available, we would be so far better off. Does not come close to rocket science when you consider that both the teams who were relegated alongside us managed to implement this at least a year earlier.

And lots did the same. But the point is that it was not the fact Walcott and Bale were cashed in, it was the situation that brought that about. So, so shamefully hypocritically shockin.

are you really saying that RL is responsible for the next 2 seasons? Forget about the relegation because that happened and you have to react to the new circumstances of our position. the first year was always going ot show buig losses as the club had to try and dismantle a club that was pL in all except its league status.It had built a PL cost base you dont shed that overnight. All you need do is go back and look at the position when Lowe left. Lowe had decimated the first team squad and as far as I remember the only real high earner we had on the books was Rasiak and Claus. We only had half a squad at that point and although Lowe would need to add to it as Wilde, only one had control over what contracts were agreed. BWP was immediately converted from a loan with option to a direct purchase. Throughout all of this there has been the fundamental problem, no one managed Burley and no one considered the long term future of the club. This financial irresponsibility continues to the point of Crouch going, no attempt was made to get our house in order. At the point Lowe left we had ample opportunity to sort things out. In comparison to your normal CCC club we had an additional £23M-£33M (that's allowing for £7M in player purchases to get the squad back up to strength) from the parachute and player sales. The £2M mortgage can be covered by an increased gate of 3000-3500. Just think what was possible if we got our house in order, had all that revenue available to us and used it wisely around the youth players. The advantage we had over that period was huge by CCC standards, but we just ****ed it against the wall. Then can anyone explain to me why Rasiak was not sold to Sheffield Wednesday for £2M? As he was hardly used and we were then forced to let him go out on loan because of the financial mess that was created. The basic plan appears to have been to give George Burley everything he asked for, irrespective of cost or what damage it was storing up for the club. Failing promotion we would rely on a buyer coming in to get us out of the ****.

If you take the point at which Lowe left then you will see that for that year we lost £9m cash out the door on normal operations. That was what was inherited. Not a cash rich company generating millions from normal trading, but a massive loss making enterprise. The legacy was blown the minute we fell out of the top flight. I am not arguing that point at all. You could point to other points as well from Lowe and the £2M over spend from Wilde. But that is not what has brought us to our knees at present. Most teams give it a go in the first season down and then gradually reign in during the second. We had so much time and capital available that other CCC teams can only dream about, with a handful of exceptions. There is no way we should be in the position we are now if someone with half a brain had reigned a halt on the expenditure and looked at the long term position. Right to the very end and to this day, Crouch's only position has been to hope an investor will come along. Lowe got us relegated, but Wilde and Crouch have subsequently buggered up any chance of returning by the total waste of resources we had available to us. There is no need for the position we now find ourselves in, that was crass mismanagement of the highest order. What has now happened is that the whole existence of the club is threatened.

If you are going back to Crouchino, it's a lot more than that. If you take the point at which Lowe left, the money in the kitty and the money received from transfers, compensation and windfalls, plus what was left over from the parachute, you should be looking at well over £40M. Wilde over spent an initial £2M which caused a lot of trouble, but there was so much time for Crouch and Wilde to come to their senses subsequently that it beggars belief. This all got wasted in trying to pretend we were a Premier club and this money which should have been the building blocks for the future was just ****ed away. Just look at the clubs that came down with us, Norwich and Palace. They slashed and burned before the end of the parachute and used their youth players to far greater effect, because they had the option of complementing them with the seasoned pro's.

The trouble is by the time all the dust has settled, your assets have gone and you are stuck with a 17 point penalty. If you don't have the money and it's the only way you can afford the club, then obviously it makes sense. But don't fool yourself here, we will still be in a far worse position. Many seem to think that administration will wipe the slate clean and give us a fresh start. Well I suppose it will in a way, but a league lower with far less assets.

There just seems a lack of interest? I really find it enjoyable watching the youth playing but there is no doubt it is a big ask. I am finding it difficult to get some to go along for free. Nothing to do with the boardroom in this case, just apathy towards football in general. I don't know if it has anything to do with failure to qualify for the Euro's or what ever, but I am at the point now where I shall only bother about myself in future. One thing that has started dawning on me is that our chances of getting back into the Premier and about as remote as a Champions League spot now. This may have something to do with the first time for a long while, I knew at the start of the season just staying up would be highlight. I believe in the next few years there will be clubs that once graced the Premier going to the wall and if the lack of interest extends to Sky coverage, there will be big adjustments to be made to the Premier.

Realistically the odds are so much against you staying in the Premier without serious money behind you. At the present only Bolton buck that trend and at best any club without a major investor can expect is to be yo-yoing between the CCC and Premier. All it takes normally is a change in manager or a few pivotal injuries and that's your lot. We had a whole first team out injured during our relegation season and I am sure would still be there if we managed to keep Killer fit. Charlton backed Curbishley to the tune of £20M in a season just before their relegation, yet everyone is so confident that if Lowe had done the same it would never have happened to us.

I like Mark Dennis, good lad and find a lot of his stuff pretty funny. You just have to make allowances that he has the IQ of a frozen chip.

You can have Einstein, Archemedes, DaVinci, Newton, Pythagoras advising on the maths homework, but if it still decides to go with yellow, there is not a lot you can do.

That is a valid point, but you have chosen to only consider part of the story. You also have Crouch and Fulthorpe in the wings, who could equally put money into the club to save it. Now as Crouch keeps reiterating his undying love for the club, it must be almost a given, but sadly no. This undying love is difficult for most to fully comprehend, as it’s like adding capital punishment to “tough love”. The problem is that Crouch and Fulthorpe do not have enough money to cover the debts we have and their only opportunity lies with administration wiping out those debts. The problem being that not only those debts will get wiped out, but any remaining assets alongside. We then end up with the remnants of a fire sale, a league lower and 17 point deduction. But we do get the Lone Ranger and Tonto riding up on the same donkey and proclaiming themselves as saviours. What has clearly been demonstrated by the fiasco over the last few years, is what is best for the club is for all parties to come together and pool their resources, but we all know that will never happen. You then come to the crunch point when administration is a formality and I do not believe any side ceding shares or capital will do any good at that stage. Our best chance then lies with someone thinking we are cheap as chips and wanting to get involved, someone with a bit more about them than the tyre kickers and pikies we have had involved with us. So back to your original point (although you only consider one half of the equation) about who should do the honourable thing for the club and fall in line and show their true love. Should it be Crouch et al, or should Lowe and Wilde thrown in behind Crouch? Well as Crouch’s only plan was nailed to the magic investment coming and making everything right, there can be little doubt about the flaws in that plan.

You just don't get it do you, even with Lowe gone it will hardly affect attendances, just give you something else to bump your gums about. These marvellous supporters like yourself can really get stuck into a whingefest and do what you do best. Crouch and Fulthorpe can dig over the embers and promise a real fans club, though it is not going to make a jot of difference and not even capable of returning us to the glories of this season. I am still hanging onto the railings from the last surge when we got our club back. Hard times are certainly ahead, but don't go expecting all these marvellous supporters to come back irrespective of what occurs off the field. We shall get what we rightly deserve.

Our attendances and more importantly, income from gate receipts have been going down irrespective of whether Lowe has been there or not. You get fans bleating about ticket prices and in the next breath about not signing players. It's very simple, you either support your club or others that do so will end up above you. You get all this ****** about Saints having a great fan base, where in reality we are on a par with Birmingham. There are a lot of clubs within the CCC that do have a great fan base and that will give that club every opportunity to out perform us.

I know out of Blackstock, Best and McG, that Best easily had the most skill. But at this point in their careerer it really depends upon how they apply themselves and the chances they have available to do that. Dexter is your Michael Owen type of striker and that relies a lot on positioning and timing of the runs than anything else. So it would not surprise me if he went on a decent run with good players around him that he could make the grade in the Premier. Put Dexters attitude into Best and there would be no doubt who would come up trumps, but all Leons problems lie within himself. McG we will never know until he steps up and makes his mark on a consistent basis, but will always be useful. The one I feel that will be the far greater miss is Baseya.

But I did not have to read anything obtuse or a hidden agenda, you clearly stated “Lowe doesn't give the impression that he wants to sell or hand over his position/influence to a bigger investor.” When you sign share proxies for an agreed price, there is no way back if someone subsequently meets that price, whether they be a big or small investor. As far as intent to sell is concerned, you will find it difficult to get a more cast iron case. You even had acceptance from Crouch during his Rupert and Michael period that their agreed price was fair! You could have argued the case that Lowe et al are not prepared to let their shares go for bread today and the possibility of jam tomorrow. We can all see now with hindsight (though some had the vision) that it would have been so much better for Saints if Wilde, Crouch and Lowe came to an agreement in the first instance. That normally always is the case when one person does not have the money to control and invest. We may well have this situation develop in the future with Fulthorpe and without the mega bucks it is always going to be better for the main parties to come to agreement, rather than a ****ing contest. And as far as investment is concerned, the reverse takeover by Lowe has brought more finance to the club than Wilde and Crouch combined to this date. I strongly believe the path we are taking now is the correct one and would have backed either one of Crouch, Wilde or Lowe if they had taken it. I would be reasonably happy if Lowe left the scene and Wilde continued alone in this manner, irrespective of past errors, as long as we make the best of what we have. I hardly know of any fan that does not prefer Lowe to keep a double-bagged low profile, but that does not mean I don’t see him as being an asset to Saints, but not at the expense of serious investment.

It's not a conclusion, it's just an impression/suspicion, call it what you like. In 12 years there has been no major investment. 10 of those years he ran the club. It's just a load of rubbish. Even Crouch will tell you that Lowe is prepared to sell his shares. I know of two occasions where his shares have been committed for sale should funds be produced, not his fault if the funds don't materialise. As for investment, we have had nothing come near the financial advantage brought into the club by Lowe with the reverse take over. Jonah did a piece on this about how much money it actually brought into the club (several millions). Although I thought it was a tad optimistic, it is not that far off. Anyone can ask Dave Jones about these events and he is usually very approachable to even a single share holder. Lowe has his faults and peccadillo's but trying to nail any current event or situation at his door just belittles your argument. All the major share holders have committed faults, it's a question of how bad the decisions were in light of circumstances. Then look at how much good they can do with the skills / assets they bring to the table.

That's very true and although I have had several concerns regarding some aspects of his management he has brougt these points up and looked to address things. Against Blackpool I felt we had a bench that would give little option in changing things round but that was not in evidence last night. Without doubt the CCC is a learning experience for Jan but he looks a quick learner and I have been overall supportive of his analysis. Burley had a very poor second season with us in this respect but I felt he was far better last season. When I saw the line up for Stoke at the beginning of the season I felt here we go again, but he had everything spot on there.

Anyone who watched the end of last season under Pearson could have told you that. Even with Pearson there I could see no reason why we were not going to seriously struggle this season. Only after the late pre season and the early games did I feel we may have a reasonable shout of avoiding relegation. If we can keep the important players fit and the number of games is not an over riding factor than I think we have a chance. One feeling that has definitely changed is the pleasure from watching them play, even though we have been on the wrong end most of the time.