Saint86

I think this is an overly simplistic view of the "tippy tappy" football (or passing it around at the back). We do this both when we're attacking and when we're defending. When we're attacking its fine - we draw the opposition onto us with the two wide CBs moving out wide, and Baz and the other CB covering central. At least one of the WBs is then slightly further forward to provide width across the middle and crucially to be set for the counter attack. We bait the opposition onto us and then quickly transition up the pitch - either via a driving run from fellows/scienza, or by having created a pocket of space for the likes of jander/downes/AA/Azaz etc. I have no issue with this, we turn the opposition around and get them running to thier own goal with space for our very talented (for champ level) attacking players to move, run, and either take on or pass through the opposition. This is far better than under Still, where we played with an almost arrogant like style of having to push right up all the time and having limited opportunities to break through an opposition that was sat in two deep defensive lines basically in their own 3rd, and where we were open to the counter. I would prefer to see us play very similar even in a back 4 - with a central deep lying CDM to provide depth to the midfield, one all round CM (Jander), one central mid in a free role (azaz), and AA up top and given freedom to float and run at teams. We would be devastating on the attack, and generally stronger with a central midfield 3 and an actual anchor man. My issue is when we go into what i am going to call Tonda's "defence mode" (his attacking play is superb). But its when he decides to stop attacking, seemingly take far less risks with the ball, and drop much deeper that we really do come a cropper. At this point we essentially pull the wing backs in as almost full backs and sit very deep with a flat back 5. We then only have the two CMs, who get overwhelmed by the opposition in the middle of the pitch which further stifles our counter attacking play and also starves possession from our attackers - essentially suffocating most of the threat we should be posing. In addition to that, the now defensive full backs, narrow CAMs/ST, and narrow CMs essentially remove any width for us in the central and final 3rds - this also greatly diminishes out ball options from the defence and further allows the opposition to push right up onto what are now essentially our defensive full backs... and that then means that they can overload our full backs with either the first man crossing, or passing it back to the supporting player to cross from deep... Which is why when you watch us we get absolutely bombarded by crosses. And given we have a keeper that (lets face it) isn't great at commanding his area, plus 3 cbs who are all pretty average in aerial defensive challenges - this just turns into an utter car crash. We go from playing to our strengths (attacking players in space, using baz as a sweeper keeper or for his distribution), to nullifying basically all our attacking play and dropping deeper to invite crosses our defence and keeper are terrible at defending. And given we have done this in every game under Eckert, the only assumption i can make is that this is a deliberate tactical ploy and is how he wants to play - not something he is learning from or likely to change. In essence, i just don't think he has the bravery needed to keep us playing attacking football over say 70min, and instead he opts for the defensive parking of the bus once he's decided we're far enough ahead, which essentially is us ceding the pitch to the opposition and daring them to come and score goals. He certainly isn't a manager who follows the "attack is the best line of defence" mantra, but he needs to find a mid ground as a minimum, because honestly his defensive set up is just shit, no 2 ways about it.

If you stop and think about it, that is actually ridiculous - its just straight up Orwellian style censorship of light hearted humour🤦‍♂️.

That sounds about right tbh. Football is a funny old game, and by all accounts, their having their own little wobble recently (albeit in relative terms).

Over a 46game season you'd have a point - but thats actually the point the rest of us are broadly making. Whereas since you take umbridge with that, i can only assume you think a 6 to 8 game sample size for a completely fresh manager is enough to extrapolate the rest of the season from, despite us not playing well in over half of those games and being damn lucky to have got 3 of those 6 wins. But Yeah... those of us that are worried about the tactics, game management, and overall performances (and what it will mean for future dropped points) are the ones chatting "bollocks" 🫣.

Well regardless, it was still a well below par / shit performance.

1.) Not specifically aimed at you, but i feel there is a need for some of the fans to adopt some realism here. And on that, i mean that our results generally overshadow the quality of the performances (across 90min) - i.e., we don't deserve to have won 6 games out of 8 - and so constantly having people bandy that stat about like its some kind of "gotcha" argument to counter anyone raising concerns is becoming quite tedious. So yes, we did comfortably beat a injury ravaged Charlton, an imploding Sheffield Wednesday, and 10man Leicester... But surely, any serious fan (that expects us to be targeting promotion with this squad) would have expected as much?. Then you look at the other games, and it really hasn't been that convincing imo. There has been spells of breath taking attacking football - but matches are longer than 20-30min! We led twice vs Birmingham, allowed them back into it the first time, and ceded the entire pitch to them after going 3-1 up - on another day they get at least a draw because they certainly had the chances. A lucky win. WBA - 3-0 up and we tried our hardest to snatch a draw from jaws of a comfortable victory - a terrible performance and lucky to get the win (which after being 3-0 up is very poor). QPR - Outplayed us and deserved at least a draw, if not the win - so another lucky win for us. Norwich - A side in the relegation places missing their best player and only real goal threat (The rest of that team had a maximum of 7 career goals at championship level, Sargent has 50). Handball goal aside, we would have carried on the same way until they'd scored regardless. So all in, we deserved that loss. Millwall - we were poor. Soft penalty in our favour, had the lead twice, ceded the pitch and initiative to them. End result - you certainly can't begrudge Millwall the win, and its a deserved loss for us. Its been the exact same pattern in each of those matches, with no signs of him adapting or learning from it. Its a huge tactical flaw in his game and if it doesn't get addressed we won't get promoted. 2.) What does being a miracle worker have to do with anything? He's manager of Southampton football club, a position he should only have been given on merit. With the squad of players available, that means he should be good enough to deliver promotion. Regardless of the results, there is certainly an open point on our performances (game management and defensive setup) to be concerned over whether he's good enough to achieve that. I think that is all people are (rightly) saying. Hopefully he learns and develops, but Saints are not here to be a creche for new managers - as a club we need promotion. Equally, does he have the background and experience to radically learn and adapt his tactics in the short timeframe he has this season? I hope he does, but i'm not convinced.

How far we have fallen.... Also, i do miss Ralph as manager.

Pretty much how i see it if we miss promotion in the next 18months - after that, we begin the slide to worsening championship competitiveness and an eventual League 1 and administration. At which point we can only hope the club can keep hold of the stadium and training ground/academy, and that we get good owners.

He's a very average penalty taker, i think this is not news to the fans - But it is mad that he is still our penalty taker after all this time. If there is no one better than him in the squad then we're going to be in serious trouble if we ever wind up in a penalty shoot out 😰

Sigh. If only this wasn't so utterly predictable.

Need a proper manager or we aren't going up... Or he needs to learn very fast.

They've completely outplayed us. There is no "to be fair" about it. And without their best player and top scorer.

This is tonda ball, 5 at the back vs a relegation side with their top scorer out injured - and no other in their team having more than 7 goals in the champ 🤣😂. But hey, we've won a few games, so regardless of the actual performances and the very valid concerns with our Southgate esq tactics, the clappers absolutely love it 🙄🙄

Great double save by bazunu.

Behave 🤦🤦‍♂️🤦🤦‍♂️

Eckert's defensive setup is a fucking disgrace. Same shit every week, no sign of learning at all. We push out at Zimmer frame speed, we don't stop crosses, we let the full backs get overloaded, and we try to hold possession with a flat back 5 and invite pressure. It's a joke.

This is shocking.

Careful willo, chat like that will get the clappers on you.

1.) Its great that he's come in and got 6 wins out 7. I don't think we really deserve all 6 wins, but he's got them - so great. And attacking wise, fair play, superb stuff - i really couldn't ask for any more there - he's putting our best players on the pitch, and got them playing some sensational flowing football at times. But game management/defence wise, there are some concerning signs that some of us would like to see improve - its unfortunate that this is seen as a bad thing by some. But, if we can do that, then I personally feel we have another level we can go to. I'm also not interested in talk of "missing out" with this squad, or excuses to that effect. Regardless of the bad start, we are easily in the best three matchday 11's and overall 25man squads in the league. There are 78points to play for and we're only 9 off 2nd despite a very below par start and with every team above us to still play at least once. So to be honest, if Eckert doesn't get us promoted he was the wrong hire, and it really is as simple as that for me - and the same would go for any manager appointment we could have made come the end of the season. In fairness to Eckert, he's basically said the same thing with regards to promotion. 2 & 3.) You're talking about results, but score lines hide performances - and again, i don't think we really deserve all of those 18 points based on the actual full 90min performances 🤷‍♂️. Ultimately this season won't be defined by a one of sample size of 7 games, it will be defined by the 31-34 he'll have as manager - we've played some fantastic attacking football, he's had a good start overall, but we've certainly had a bit of luck in that. I think we can get better and both dominate teams in an attacking sense whilst also looking comfortable and defensively solid (the part we aren't at the present), but to do it he does need to improve on game management and sort his defensive setup/tactics. Get that right and we've got the potential to comfortably be the best side in the league imo. He's a young manager and therefore can be expected to learn and develop. As it is though, we seem to have 2 distinct gears under Eckert, a frankly superb attacking setup that is capable of blowing teams away, and then this jekly/hyde transition into a pretty passive and weak defensive setup - one which I really don't like, and that sees us essentially cede 2/3 the pitch to the opposition and invites them back into games. It has already nearly cost us points vs: WBA - we did everything we could to scrape a draw from a 3 goal lead 🙃, Brum - who had every right to get a draw after twice being 2goals down, QPR - who frankly completely outplayed us for much of the game, And then ofc, we did drop points vs Millwall - where we lost despite leading twice, and which was entirely due to standing off them and dropping deeper and deeper, inviting them on to us, and allowing them to pepper our box with crosses and long shots. Needlessly. If we stay as we are, I still think we'll get play offs like as not, but its going to be pretty tense watching us invite teams to pepper our box with crosses and shots with these awful defensive setups - I can't say i relish the prospect of that in say a play off 2nd leg (or even at Wembley). I don't have an issue resting players - i have an issue with standing off the opposition and inviting them onto us. We are changing the players like for like, but completely changing the system into one that invites pressure. 4.) I don't agree that its patronising - Still's coaching setup left with him, Lallana is now with the u21, and Paul Trollope has also left. There seems to be a bit of a void there to fill with respect to senior coaching support. He's the youngest / least experienced manager ever at this level. The club would look to bring in experienced coaches and assistants to support any other manager, it can't just be deemed patronising because Eckert is 32 😄. And just look at managers like Jose, SAF, or Pep etc., who've had many prominent assistants over the years, not least the likes of Arteta and Maresca recently.

Tempted to agree, but also pretty sure the reason we're suffering for this is because we are sitting back 2nd half and allowing sides to push up on us, overload the wb/fbs, and ping crosses in at leisure. I feel more attacking options (to improve on fraser / aribo as a minimum) would allow us to maintain a threat going forward, and therefore alleviate a lot of the pressure on the defence - at least more than having a defender who can wind balls in the air and allowing teams to pressure us ever deeper (also, Quarshie should fit this bill regardless).

The interesting thing about capable strikers, is that they score goals...

I considered fellows at RWB, but actually we have Roerslev and Jelert who can play there when fit.

We need another left winger / attacking mid style player. Currently the cover for Azaz and Scienza just isn't good enough. Its bad enough at the moment when we take off Scienza and go into "camp our box" mode once the game is almost already won (only to almost throw it away - or indeed do as per Millwall)... but if we have to start games without some of our best attacking players we will struggle.

Overall i agree with your sentiment, but your being about as reactionary as the more negative posts. Also... Is it "as good as it gets", or can we indeed "get better"? MLG must be fuming at these two statements😄 I've said before on this thread to not be too reactionary to Tonda. He's a young manager, probably deserved the job till the end of the season if there is no one better, but he's yet to do enough to convince me he'll get us promoted. As for our performances, anyone who doesn't think we're Jekyl and hyde under him (depending on whether we're trying to defend a lead or attacking) is living in absolute cloud cuckoo land imo - are we all watching the same games?! Similarly, digging out other fans for being concerned about his 2nd half tactics is not helpful - especially since its an entirely valid concern... we lost at Millwall because of his defensive setup, we almost dropped a 3 goal leader yesterday because of it (and got lucky to get away with it frankly), and on another day Brum score with the pressure and that chances towards the end as well. He absolute has to get this sorted out - his current defensive setup isn't working and is already costing us points, and this will only get worse as teams adapt to us and players get tired/injured. I've long said that people need to not get carried away and get too reactionary. We hands down have one of the best squads in the league, and Tonda has quite possibly the best attacking quartet (in fellows, scienza, azaz, and AA) - and fair play to him for using them as well as he has. We are frightening when we attack.... Great stuff on that front, and full credit to him for it. But he has absolutely got to sort out his game management and tactics for when he wants to ease off, because this part of his gameplan is really really poor - i just can't relate to anyone who can watch these games and not see this. The way we drop deep in games we're previously dominating, to instead seek to keep possession with a back 5 in a narrow 3-4-2-1 formation is just complete game management suicide. Its like the very worst of Southgate for England. We're dominating and winning a game, and Tonda decides to tell them to stop committing men forward, stop taking risks, and to basically to try and sit deep, slow the tempo, keep meaningless possession, and to basically invite the other side to come and have a go at us... we go from dominating teams to inviting them onto us (for basically no valid reason). We also give up all width in this defensive shape - the wing backs become fairly static full backs, we have no midfield width because of the narrow formation, and so the opposition are able to overload the wings and get crosses in at will - and even a blind 95year old russian granny could watch us for 10min like this and realise we can't defend crosses for shit. The way he sets us up "to defend" is suicidal from a game management perspective - we are consciously choosing to go from being in a position of control, to inviting the other team to come and get back into the game. Needlessly. He needs to learn from this ASAP, get some coaches in around him to help him, or someone have a word in his ear, because continued 2nd halves like this will cost us promotion.

First one absolutely isn't his fault. He doesn't see it till late, so unless it was straight at him he's never reacting in time. Command of the box is a weakness for him - but i also do not understand why (at set peices) we don't protect him and allow the opposition to just stand on top of him and jostle him (get another body in there to deal with that player).... but no... we seemingly go, "we know baz struggles with this, lets let the opposition maximise that advantage".... Similarly, we play in such a way so as to invite crosses - and our defenders simply do not deal with them... we struggle to win defensive aerial challenges well, and even when we do, the clearances are often weak and don't clear the ball properly. He has his limitations, and he has his advantages... when we attack, we either use him to draw the opposition onto us by recycling the ball through him, or by using his distribution for a release. This pattern of play is what led to the first goal vs WBA and has been important to much of our most dangerous play under Ekert. This is why Macca was dropped - he just can't do this job. Baz also is a very effective sweeper keeper and comes out almost to centre circle on occasions. This is playing to his strengths. But then (second halves currently under Ekert) when we decide to stop attacking we drop deeper and deeper, invite pressure, invite balls into the box - which means we are directly playing to his weaknesses of having a poorer than average command of his area, and a slight weakness on some shot positions - particularly in crowded boxes where that extra split second reaction time of seeing a shot late etc makes a difference. But in those cases, its also down to our defence not doing the basics that exposes us/bazunu - i.e., not winning the first ball, not stopping the cross, not closing someone down... the Gray goal for brum the other night (which was a fantastic hit that you don't expect a champ keeper to save frankly), the two ranged hits for millwall (again, he isn't saving those)... Fact still remains, he is the best keeper at the club. He is also a young keeper that has had limited game time / injuries in recent years, and was thrown in the deep end too early into a terrible premier league season, and then suicide football under martin... But he will develop if coached properly, and there is a good keeper in there.