Wes Tender

The time to deliver, Shatlock, is after Article 50 has been triggered and negotiations begin in earnest. What are these hard choices and consequences you think that I will have to face? I certainly won't be sh*tting the bed, as I'm totally relaxed about the whole thing and will be cracking open a celebratory bottle of champagne when Article 50 is triggered.

Thanks for giving this the thumbs-up. I realise that it must have been difficult for you.

Today Theresa May will confirm that we will be leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. On that basis, there will not be a Norway style deal with the EU. I will leave it up to you as to when you will admit that the Norway option will not happen and when the £50 bet we agreed will become payable to your nominated charity.

We outplayed Burnley for most of the match but how we miss somebody like Pelle or Mane to convert the chances we created. Hojbjerg had a decent game in midfield, as did Romeu until his stupid gift to Burnley, who will thank him and Forster for gifting them three points. J W-P was largely anonymous as was Tadic. We missed Davis. As usual, we are more effective with Bertrand and Cedric giving us the width and pace out wide, but all of that is nullified when you don't have somebody in the box to convert their crosses. We desperately need to buy or loan a striker before the January window closes.

Bloody silly of Romeu giving away free kicks right on the edge of our box. And can we please swap Forster for Heaton, who is far the better keeper

Those with a better understand of the role of the BoE like Mervyn King? https://www.ft.com/content/8c858290-cb72-11e6-864f-20dcb35cede2 Yes, Carney is obliged to talk the economy up and also to take remedial action to stabilise the economy as part of his job. But naturally his credibility has taken a knock because the forecasts he made about the dire consequences that would follow a vote in the referendum to leave the EU did not come to pass. Therefore his forecasts for the longer term consequences are also to be taken with a large pinch of salt, as presumably they are also exagerated to reflect the worst case scenario, coming as they do from a dour w/banker

Carney's utterances were accepted without question by the Remoaners on here because of his economic "expertise". His predecessor Mervyn King who was altogether more upbeat about the economic consequences of Brexit, was casually dismissed as yesterday's man. Osborne's opinion as the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time apparently carried more weight than Lawson's for the same reason. Now both Carney and Osborne having been proved wrong about their dire warnings for the economy in the aftermath of the Referendum result, the forum Remoaner position is now that these errors of judgement don't matter, as we haven't even triggered Article 50 yet, so this is short termism. Predictions about the rise in unemployment, fall in property values, stock market crash of the FTSE 100 & 500, have all gone in the opposite direction, so now all there is to cling to is the fall in the value of the overvalued pound and the small rise in inflation caused by it. And of course, quite a lot of the blame for the fall in the value of the pound rests on the shoulders of the likes of Carney and Osborne, who have talked it down with their pessimistic forecasts. Thankfully Osborne is gone and Carney has cut short his tenure as Governor of the BoE, but we should be grateful at least that he had the humility to admit his error.

Did I make any claim to be the forum's leading funny man? No, I thought not. Working nights is catching up with you Was it ironic you choosing "Stuffy" as your avatar, him being renowned for his lack of humour and for being away with the fairies?

You never cease to make me smile, urging patience until we gain a clearer idea of how things will pan out once we have triggered Article 50, when ironically you hung on Carney's every word even before the referendum. If your PRSD requires a joke to sooth it, and since you are talking dogs, here is a European related dog joke, just for you. An Alsatian went to a telegram office and wrote: "Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof." The clerk examined the paper and told the dog: "There are only nine words here. You could send another 'Woof' for the same price." "But," the dog replied, "that would make no sense at all." In the same way that you are often barking up the wrong tree.

CEC - here's your daily dose of encouraging news to lighten your PRSD mood http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/11/eu-has-lose-hard-brexit-uk-mark-carney-says/ It now seems that Carney, being a dour w/banker, felt a need to exaggerate the repercussions of our voting to leave the EU in order to cover a worst case scenario, I realise that you put much store in the expertise of Carney, so this more rational viewpoint from him should enable you to sleep better (at whatever time of the day you take your sleep)

Agreed, Clasie was immense tonight as were Davis and Romeu. Together they bossed the midfield for a large part of the match.

It was a great performance tonight with all of the players putting in a shift. After the first twenty minutes when Liverpool were dominant apart from in the final third, we grew into the game and had the better of them for the rest of the match. The midfield played it hard and tight, closing down well and fighting for the 50/50 balls and winning their fair share of them. Liverpool players went down too easily at the merest touch and a pathetic excuse for a referee gave them everything, including some crap decisions on throw ins and corner decisions. It will of course be more difficult to come away with a result at Anfield, but the lads will have had a great confidence boost tonight and only have to play the same determined way to get at least a draw with luck, to put us into the final.

Klopp expresses confusion as to why Lallana gets the bird from us. http://www.empireofthekop.com/2017/01/11/klopp-is-very-confused-by-southampton-fans/ He can understand why Lovren gets the abuse for the way he left, but is surprised that Lallana gets the same treatment, being as he is a local lad. Well Jurgen, Lallana acted no better than Lovren, rubbed our noses in it with the egotistical article thanking us for making him a star footballer, so arguably his local roots actually make his behaviour worse than Lovren's.

3.28 am? Is the Brexit PRSD losing you sleep? Methinks you doth protest too much. What corruption business are you waffling on about? What's Jesus got to do with it? I think that you are seriously losing the plot, dear boy.

Or more appropriately Losealot for Charles

Charles, instead of me trying to argue things that don't penetrate your skull, or which you avoid answering, or which you twist, I grow weary of such a pointless exercise. But I realise from the way that you respond with your increasing use of petty insults, the struggle you appear to have cobbling together a defence of the mistaken forecasts of the merchants of project fear, that post-referendum you are suffering some considerable mental strife. Let us call it PRSD perhaps, (Post Referendum Stress Disorder). Therefore I propose to lift your spirits, to purge you if I can of all that harmful negativity over some dire things that might not come to pass, by posting some uplifting positive news. The stuff in those links doesn't seem to have done the trick and your sour tones above were posted after the great news that we will be first in line for a trade deal with the USA, so that hasn't cheered you either. How about this as something to look forward to optimistically? https://gallery.mailchimp.com/708e119fa74cd33e6a28f949a/files/FEG_Commonwealth_Trade_web.pdf

Charles, old chap, I'm disappointed that you have chickened out of providing your own personal view of how high inflation would have to rise to justify your forecast that it had "much further to go." By all means make sweeping generalised statements of doom and gloom if you can justify them, but don't cop out by inviting me to Google dire inflation forecasts from the OBR "estimate." You made the statement, you provide the relevant information link. I find your naivety really quite sweet when it comes to believing unquestioningly the forecasts and predictions of the various economists' dire warnings of the consequences of our vote to leave the EU, when most of them didn't come to pass. I have never questioned that the pound would fall, as it was over-valued, but of course there are up-sides to that when it comes to our exports and tourist industries. That inflation has risen slightly was not a surprise either. But regarding your refusal to acknowledge that most of the other dire warnings have not come to pass, is verging on bone-headed stubbornness. You claim that I have not bothered to substantiate that point, but Google is your friend and it was easy enough to find plenty. Just for variety, here are two links to articles from the Guardian and the Conservatives https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/20/brexit-eu-referendum-economy-project-fear http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/09/three-months-on-project-fears-predictions-of-instant-economic-disaster-have-been-disproved.html Feel free to challenge anything that they say. As per your usual MO, you make some statement misrepresenting what I said and then chiding me for it. I have asked you to show me where I had made various statements in previous posts that you have been unable to requote as proof, and here you are doing it again. Show me where I have said that the bodies making those dire economic forecasts are corrupt? Either prove it or apologise. You say that these economic bodies have no justification to imperil their reputations when there is no referendum in the offing to influence. Is this an admission that you accept the possibility that the referendum did in fact influence their forecasts towards the bleakest picture they painted?

I see that you haven't managed to point to where I said that sterling wouldn't fall, or where I said that I was non-committal about the fate of the economy. Whilst we're discussing what you have omitted to respond to, you haven't offered your opinion as to what level of inflation constituted it having "much further to go". Regarding your assertion that I have an alright Jack attitude especially towards the young apparently, engage your brain for a minute and realise what a ridiculous assertion that is when you have based it on my mention that my mortgage has gone down following the reduction in the Bank Rate. You are earning less on your savings, I am paying less on my mortgage, but how are the young or the less fortunate affected? Are they more inclined to have savings like you, or to owe money like me? I would say the latter, wouldn't you? Therefore a drop in interest rates is helpful to them, is it not? I have to laugh at your accusation that I have a poor grasp of economics given the couple of howlers that you have produced during the past couple of days, like your assertion that the pound was not overvalued before the referendum. The difference between pessimism and realism? The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails. A bit early to adjust the sails at the moment before Article 50, surely? Any reports I rebuked during the referendum campaign, I did so on the basis that they were pure speculation, possibly driven by vested interests, or based on improper calculations, like the Treasury report claiming that every family would be worse off by £4300 p.a. by 2030. I realise that as events during the past 6 months have proven that the majority of those so-called experts' predictions have been unfounded, I would say that my cynicism was largely justified. I can see though how it leaves you a little red-faced, having gleefully stood by them as purveyors of the gospel truth. I am developing a very thick skin against these accusations of yours that I don't care for the young, that I don't care for the future prosperity of the Country, that I am a little Englander, I'm a liar, etc. I refute all of them, but if it helps you to feel good about yourself, go ahead. If you would rather indulge in that sort of mud-slinging than attempting to argue the case, it doesn't bother me. I feel rather sorry for you that you feel the need to resort to those measures and of course it considerably weakens your position.

Your response is all over the place, as usual. but it is fun trying to disentangle it. Show me where I said previously that I was non-committal about the fate of our economy. I have expressed the opinion in the past that I believe that after a short dip, the economy would be stronger in the future once we had left the EU and arranged some trade deals with the main developing countries of the World. This is my optimistic view countering your pessimistic one. What is difficult to comprehend there? Show me where I said that there would be "no adverse consequences" of us leaving the EU. The devaluation of the pound was predicted to be a consequence and I don't recall specifically claiming that it wouldn't fall. A bit economically naive of you to challenge that it was overvalued before the referendum. Do some reading on it. Here is just one link that might assist you and many other economists shared that view. https://fullfact.org/economy/exchange-rates-and-imf/ The reference to endangering anything is derived from your "There is no reason in either fact or logic to believe such an dangerous assumption" I'm afraid that your comprehension comes up short once more, although your spelling is fine apart from your inability to spell Brexit. No doubt we should all take note that because your savings rate decreased because of the fall in interest rates, that is indicative that we will all be poorer as a result. The decision to reduce interest rates has been questioned by some economists, but on a personal note only, you understand, I still have some outstanding mortgage, so my payments have reduced. Petrol prices are also affected by artificial controls on supply and demand by stock-piling and they are nevertheless at a considerably lower level than they were some time before the referendum.

Please take a bit more care to read what is said and how it should be comprehended. Note the use of the word "apart" when you read about the "stance" I take on access to the single market. Also note that I explained that I had expressed an opinion on the subject. Go ahead and argue semantics on the difference between expressing an opinion on something against making a stance on a position if it pleases you to be petty. Speaking of assumptions, I won't go over the top and indulge in your favoured rhetoric with hyperbole and describe them as dangerous, but you are very fond of them yourself. These include the assumption that inflation has much further to go, that according to the OBR, there will be a significant fall in our GDP, that we will end up a poorer place than we otherwise would have been, etc. Naively, you believe that just because the referendum is long since in the past, that the credibility of doom and gloom predictions from the likes of the OBR will have increased. You take comfort that because an over valued pound has fallen in value, that everything else that they predict will also come to pass. Of course, the fall in the value of the pound has upsides too, but I'm sure that you will be happy to ignore those. Inflation has increased by a small percentage, so I'll be interested for you to quantify what in your opinion the level will be to justify your claim that it has "much further to go" Yes, consumer confidence has held up much better than expected, as has employment, house prices, inward investment, all things that your so-called experts predicted would suffer immediately following a vote to leave, so an element of aversion to expert opinion, or as I prefer taking it with a pinch of salt, is surely vindicated by events. To counter your last sentence, neither has there been anything at all during the past six months after the referendum to support your contention that we would be a poorer nation having left the EU than we would otherwise have been, so there is no point at all in bringing that up again, especially as we have not yet triggered Article 50. Why son't you wait and see what transpires then, like any other sensible person would?

I assume that you will be equally scathing about Shurlock's childish name-calling, calling posters names like "Baldrick" and arrogantly dismissing any opinion with a different viewpoint in terms like these:- Calling something "a load of pony" is really quite a mild idiom, whereas "who the f*ck" is a bit extreme isn't it, from somebody complaining about the tone of debate.

It is rather cutely eccentric, your fabrication of another word to describe our exit from the EU. Brexit or even Britex make some sort of sense, but credit must go to you for inventing a nonsense word like Bretix. Good of you though to acknowledge that the Remain campaign was also characterised by much spin and lies too, and it is a matter of opinion as to which side told the biggest porkies. I believe that the reason why the electorate chose to disbelieve the lies told by the Remain campaign, was because they came from people and bodies which ought to have been trustworthy, but which were proven not to be, such as the Treasury and George Osborne and major corporations with vested interests. Once discredited, there was an inclination to question other arguments put forward by them, but as you say, it was indeed a sorry state of affairs having the Chancellor and the Treasury acting in that way. Whether the EU allows us privileged access to the single market or not isn't a stance that I have taken a position on, apart from expressing an opinion that it isn't in their interests to enter a tariff war with us which would encourage us to seek replacement imports from elsewhere. I realise that you are dismissive of our status as one of the major economic powers in the World and that we therefore must have little clout when it comes to negotiating a deal with the EU, but hey, because I take that position, it must be me that misunderstands the situation. Thankfully, a final acknowledgement that the referendum campaign is history, although you continue to want to rake over old coals. As you say, it is now the time for the Government to attempt to negotiate the best possible deal for us, but that must be one that allows us to take back control of our affairs, that being the message that resonated with the electorate. As for your last sentence, I admire the hyperbole where you suggest that if we are forced by the stubborn intransigence of the EU negotiators into a clean Brexit because we cannot accept their terms for access to the single market, that this would be akin to the actions of a dictatorship and undemocratic despite the decision of the referendum that gave the government a mandate to arrange our leaving of the EU. Your argument smacks of irony when you fail to see that when it comes to dictatorships or undemocratic bodies, the EU is far more deserving of those epithets.

Sh*t

Both of our defender strikers have scored now!

V V-D's value increases yet again. He'll end up our top scorer this season at this rate.