sadoldgit

I couldn’t agree more hypo. You lot do also deserve a Merry Christmas! 🥳

If only the Israelis had not occupied Palestinian territory in the West Bank. If only both sides have not been chipping away at each other for 70 years. By pretending that this is just a result of one attack in October is what I expect of some of the some of the less bright posters. As I said way back on this thread (for which I was labelled an antisemite) being the victims of genocide in the past does not give you the right to do the same to others. If only it was as simple as you try and pretend it is. Fortunately more and more people are seeing that the response has gone way beyond anything that could be described as proportionate and Netanyahu and his cronies are no better than Hamas.

There has been a lot of discussion about whether the actions of the IDF constitutes genocide in Gaza. Whether it technically is or isn’t genocide, there can be no dispute about the ethnic cleansing/domicide description. Ben Wallace’s description of this being a “killing rage” also nails it. This is not and has never been an operation just to take out Hamas. It is a revenge attack designed to flatten Gaza and to kill and displace as many Palestinians as possible.

Easy to mistake them for Hamas terrorists through a snipers telescopic sight I guess? https://www.osvnews.com/2023/12/16/israeli-sniper-kills-two-christians-in-gaza-latin-patriarchate-says/amp/ And we all know how difficult it is to drive a bulldozer without running over people. https://maktoobmedia.com/world/israel-bulldozes-buries-alive-dozens-at-gaza-hospital/

Wrong twice? The IDF are killing their own people and have done since 7th October. How is that in any way shape or form taking care in who they target? It gets worse, the hostages were carrying white flags when they were shot, but the IDF still have the moral high ground eh?

As I said before, the hostages have more to fear from the IDF than they do from Hamas. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-armed-forces-killed-3-hostages-by-mistake-spokesperson-2023-12-15/

Big reveal? Am I missing something here? I stopped reading posts from the usual suspects on this thread a while back so if they are expecting a response to something they have a long wait ahead. Anyway, this is aimed at the non usual suspects and posters who don’t hate Muslims - anyone seen any proof that the tunnels under the Al Shifa hospital housed the Hamas command centre in Gaza yet? I saw some footage taken in the tunnels yesterday and there was nothing there apart from electric cables. No sign of recent activity. Nothing. https://theintercept.com/2023/11/21/al-shifa-hospital-hamas-israel/

Starmer’s best PMQs by far today. Not only did he rip Sunak a new one, he showed him up to be the weak, incompetent, petulant man he is. He also cracked some funny jokes and showed some charisma (for those who critise him for being dull). Sunak sounds more and more like Rik from The Young Ones. The Tories are toast with him leading the next GE campaign and have no one of any calibre to replace him. As much as it is depressing that we still have to wait for the GE, it will be fun watching them implode in the meantime.

I didn’t “scour the internet” for the article. It was recommended to me. The purpose of posting the article was not to make a specific post about Netanyahu, although it was relevant given where he is now and what is happening at the moment. The Netanyahu reference is a very small part of the article (his quote “we’ve got to get the Palestinians out of the West Bank for good”)but then you would know that if you had bothered to read it. I posted the article because although it was written some time ago, it was written by someone who supported Israel and explained, very well, how things have changed there. It is very relevant to what is happening now. I know that you are desperate to nit pick every post I make but maybe, for a change, why don’t you engage your brain and try and join a grown up conversation?

It is a white, far right, extreme nationalist movement that operate through social media. One of our regular posters here used to use one of their memes, Pepe The Frog, as an avatar until he was outed.

This is a long and old article about this situation, but as relevant today as when it was written. It shows the mind set of a younger Netanyahu, which doesn’t bode well for the current situation, and shines a light on where we are now from someone with a far greater knowledge of it than any of us here has. It will probably upset those who can’t read any criticism of the Israeli government without throwing accusations of antisemitism around, but it would be good for them to read a well balanced view of what has happened to Israeli government attitudes over the years and why we are where we are. https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/may/09/israel-middle-east-max-hastings

Me too. He should have been given a life sentence. Apparently as part of his parole conditions he has to have anger management counselling. Presumable that is to try and help prevent him emptying a gun through a locked door into his next girlfriend.

I have just had the pleasure (?) of watching a programme about Nigel Farage which filled in a few gaps in my knowledge about him. Somehow I had missed his past support for Hitler’s policies and quite blatant antisemitism and quote that Hitler was right about gassing the Jews. Surely this isn’t the same Nigel Farage who our resident antisemite hunter Lord Duckhunter defends loyally and supports politically? No, it can’t possibly be can it? Perhaps it is ok because he doesn’t actually criticise them, he just endorses their genocide? Note to self, instead of calling out Netanyahu’s inhuman policy of the constant. bombing and shooting of civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, I should instead have said that he and his cronies should be gassed. That would pass the Duckhunter litmus test on antisemitism given who he so rampantly supports. Or maybe he just gives Nigel a free pass because of his hatred for migrants and the EU?

According to a recent poll as published in The Times, people with a lower cognitive ability were more likely to vote for Brexit. You only need to read this thread to come to that conclusion. 😂 Before I get lynched again for no reason, I did try and post a link to the article but it is behind a paywall so this will have to do (yes, I know it comes at it from a different angle). https://neurosciencenews.com/cognitive-skills-brexit-25246/

I apologise profusely for using the word “many” in an earlier post, especially to the Islamophobes on the forum. Apparently I should have said that there were “multiple instances” instead. My bad. https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13145

Seriously egg? I honestly thought that there was some hope for you but you have slipped back into usual suspect mode. What a shame. Ok, you are like a dog with a bone so here we go for the last time. I did not refer to that particular article or deliberately misquote it. Why would I when it is very clear it used a different word and knowing that the usual suspects go over everything with a fine tooth comb trying to find comebacks? If you look back at my previous posts you will see that I said looked at a number of different reports. I found The Cradle article on another forum along with some other quoted articles and posts copied from Twitter. They were all fairly vague but the eye witness reports gave the impression that that we weren’t just talking about a few casualties. I used The Cradle article in my post because I knew certain posters would call me a liar and that not only supported the claim but it also detailed other deliberate strikes against civilian hostages taken by Hamas. It wasn’t my only source material. Understand? I didn’t go out of my way to do anything and you will not find one word of any of my posts where I “minimise” what happened on that day. You are just doing what the others do, twisting something to suit your argument. Not once have I minimised any terrorist attack. I have always posted against any extremist activities. I don’t condone the actions of Hamas but if you want to interpret what I have said that way, then that is down to you. If you can be bothered, go back and read what I have said. If Hamas had continued their murderous attacks on civilians every day since 7th October I would be posting against that too, but they haven’t. I am posting against the claims that the IDF, at the behest of the Israeli government are using proportionate force since 7th October and that this isn’t defence, it is revenge. That has absolutely nothing to do with any attempt to play down what happened on 7th October, unless you are so polarised in your support for Zionist ideology and hatred for Muslims that you can’t see the wood for the trees. Even if Hamas had only killed 50 civilians that day it would have been a horrendous attack. Why do you have to use semantics (can you give me a figure difference between “some” “many” “ and “a number” when no one has a clue what the number is nor are we likely ever to know so we are talking in abstracts anyway? I know why, because you are trying to pretend that I had another (and different) motive. This thread is going the way of so many others which is a shame as, for a while, it was half decent. For that reason l’ll leave you to it as the usual suspects can smell blood and it will only get worse. Believe what you want, but this is my take on things - There is barely a fag paper between the butchery carried out by Hamas on 7th October and the consistent butchery that has been carried out by the IDF pretty much every day since. Peace will only ever be achieved when both sides of the conflict accept the two state solution, Israel withdraws from the occupied territories and all of the Arab nations accept that Israel has the right to exist in peace alongside the other nations in the ME. Strict boundaries need to be agreed by all sides, adhered to and policed by a peace keeping force from the UN. Immediate and heavy sanctions need to be implemented on any side breaking the peace accord with no veto allowed through the UN’s security council. I don’t see anything controversial or that can be twisted to show antisemitism, but I am sure it will happen anyway. Keep working on it egg. I’m sure you will get there eventually, despite this recent set back 😉 👋

That article said “some”. There are other articles which use different words from various eye witnesses which made it sound more than a few. I have already explained my use of the word “many”. It is not rocket science to deduce that it you fire shells and spray a large crowd of people with machine gun fire from a helicopter, there are going to be lots of casualties. The majority of the crowd were civilians. As they say in the US, you do the math. If you honestly think that, by some miracle, the indiscriminate firing at a crowd of people didn’t hit more than a few civilians and managed just to pick out terrorists, fair enough. Chose your own word and we will use that if that makes you happy.Given that the IDF showed no restraint elsewhere that day and deliberately fired on civilians as well as terrorists, I don’t see why you are making such a big deal over a word that no one can quantify anyway. Just so that I know for future reference, am I allowed to use the word “many” when referring to the number of innocent civilians killed since 7th October? I am not denying what Hamas did that day. I was pointing out that there were deaths and injuries to civilians caused by the approach used by the IDF too, something that isn’t get much main media attention. This is relevant because of the claim made in the early days that care would be taken to minimise the number of civilian casualties to Palestinians. It has been shown that from day 1 they had no problem with firing on their own people, so any claims that they have taken care to minimise deaths of non Hamas people in Gaza (and the West Bank) was and is clearly bollocks. Can we move on now or do we have to play forum semantics some more? So, a recent poll of Israeli Jews shows that Netanyahu scored less than 4% when it when it came to decision making and giving information. He is clearly deeply unpopular (if you don’t like the word deeply feel free to use another of your choice) in Israel and in Jewish communities outside of Israel. If you look at his quotes and those of some of his government colleagues, the present administration has issues over the two state solution and have an often stated hatred towards Palestinians (there are plenty of examples on line so don’t bother asking me for proof). Hamas is one issue, but until Netanyahu and his cronies are removed the chance of a long term peaceful settlement look unlikely. I am deeply sorry to criticise some Jewish people again, but given they are also being criticised by other Jews, I am in good company. *** I have since read another report which mentions “a number of casualties”. Let’s all pretend that I said a “number” rather than “many” and perhaps we can all move on with our lives?

I agree given the amount of dissemination from both sides, that is why I said that I didn’t know if the infirmation about the tunnel had been verified. The Israel police confirmed that there were casualties from “friendly fire” so I am assuming that is verification? I don’t know why you went all MLG by my use of the word “many”. No figure was given (and I misused earlier when talking about the numbers as 200 have already been identified as Hamas - the point I meant to make is that we will probably never know how many deaths were down to Hamas or “friendly fire”) so when I said “many of the casualties” the “many” came from an assumption that as the vast majority of the crowd at the festival were Israelis or foreigners and the terrorists mingled with the crowd to make it difficult for the IDF to target them, any firing into the crowd was likely to cause more than a few casualties. It also transpired that the IDF fired artillery shells into the crowd too. So, we have 1200 Israelis and Foreigners, plus 200 terrorists killed and some 3,400 wounded with a helicopter, artillery and automatic weapon fire raking the area, is it really a stretch to assume that “many” of the casualties were caused by friendly fire? I didn’t say it wasn’t. Pointing out that a percentage (is that ok Badger) of the casualties were caused by the IDF themselves does not absolve Hamas of responsibility for the attack and I have never said that. It is also not unreasonable to suggest that the hostages face greater danger from the IDF given that it is the interests of Hamas to keep them alive and the IDF have shown no interest in showing discretion at who they shot at. If you read the article from The Cradle I posted earlier, the Israeli police confirmed that the IDF had shelled a police station in which Hamas were holding a number of Israeli police hostage rather than negotiate for their release, killing everyone inside. They then bulldozed the police station flat (why would you do that?). They also confirmed that IDF tanks shelled a house where Hamas were holding civilians hostage rather than negotiate with the terrorists. Everyone inside was killed including a 12 year old girl. What was that we were told about how careful they were going to be with civilians? These were on their own side! As for Duckhunter’s comments, from the start I have called out the killing of civilians by both sides as wrong but as we know from his own post, his definition of antisemitism is criticising a Jew. So yes, I criticise Netanyahu and the ghouls he governs with for the butchery of innocent civilians on pretty much every day from 7th October. It is his usual deflection tactic. He can’t defend the indefensible although he clearly doesn’t have a problem with it, so he defects. I have an issue with any civilians being killed from either side of the divide, he clearly has no issue with the butchery of women, children and babies as long as they are Palestinian. Now that Whelk, is “nasty”. https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13111 No ethnic cleansing here - https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/likud-minister-suggests-world-should-promote-voluntary-resettlement-of-gazans/

It was more than a few so many isn’t a weasel word. From what I have seen a number of cars were hit by the aerial attacks, cars full of people who the attackers wouldn’t have know if they were Hamas or not. As I am sure you know, if you fire automatic weapons at a crowd of people indiscriminately there will be “many” people hit. We will never know how many were Hamas and how many were innocent civilians as “many” of the bodies were badly burnt, but I appreciate your efforts to be even handed.

I don’t know if this has been verified but apparently the Israelis built the tunnel(s) under the hospital when they built the hospital which is why they were so sure it/they existed. Again, I don’t know whether this is fact but, apparently, the Palestinians filled the entrance with concrete as they had no use for that area. For every claim that the Israeli government make you can find shedloads of rebuttals and they often end up backtracking. And we can finally acknowledge that they have gone gung ho and are shooting people indiscriminately as it has been accepted by Netanyahu himself. For those who missed my post earlier the Israeli authorities now accept that many of the casualties at the Nova festival were caused by indiscriminate firing into the escaping crowd by Israeli Apache helicopters. If you are one of the hostages you have probably got more chance now of being killed by the IDF than Hamas. Talking of not aging well, the claim that the IDF were acting out of defence and targeting Hamas is now know to be a lie. From the start they have operated out of revenge, are killing indiscriminately and if they happened to kill Hamas fighters in the process, that is a bonus, but civilians have been fair game from the start. They are not looking to break Hamas, they are looking to break the Palestinians and this is going on in the West Bank too. Netanyahu and his cronies are no better than the Hamas terrorists and his apologists are looking more discredited by the day.

Getting back on topic, do those who think that the IDF have a free rein to do what they want, still happy about that? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/19/horrifying-dozens-reported-killed-in-israeli-attacks-on-camps-schools

It appears now that the IDF killed many innocents civilians themselves in the Hamas attack of 7th October. https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13111 As for this very strange obsession that a small group of long standing posters on here develop for others, I just want to put this on record. I do have the small group of usual suspects on my ignore list but as I have stated several times - 1. If you come onto the forum without logging on the ignore function does not work so all of the posts are visible. 2. If another poster quotes a post from someone on the ignore list, that post is visible in their quote so visible anyway if they are in your ignore list. 3. The ignore function gives you the option to view any post from posters on your ignore list if you decide you want to read that particular post. I have said many times that I do read some of the posts sometimes if i want a better idea of why a thread goes where it does. That doesn’t mean that the individuals concerned are not on my ignore list. I hope that makes sense and that I don’t need to repeat it yet again. If I was going to make up stuff just to impress complete strangers on an internet football forum I would make up much more exciting stories. I don’t see the point of telling lies on forms, there are enough fantasists around as it is. These are facts and all easily provable if I could be bothered. I was arrested for allegedly assaulting my ex wife. The case was thrown out in court and even her brief admitted that the CPS should never have taken the case to court. I started treatment at The Priory in Hayes, Kent in December 2013 and was referred there by the company doctor whilst working for The Spectator. I was never a “top flier” at the Guardian or CPS and have never claimed to be so. I ended up in middle management jobs in both organisations. He is just making stuff up as he usually does. My first job was with the then HM Customs & Excise. I then joined The Times for 5 years, then The Guardian/Observer for 22 years where I was made redundant and from there went to The Daily/Sunday Telegraph and The Spectator. I didn’t work for 3 years after my stint at The Spectator before joining the Crown Prosecution Service where my then partner, now wife, also worked. I left after deciding to take early retirement. i do not post deliberately to wind up the usual suspects although occasionally do as they sometimes leave the door open for a bit of fun at their expense. It doesn’t seem unreasonable as I have taken so much crap from them over the years. The vast majority of my opinions fall in what they would call the left of centre/woke area and anyone posting anything against right wing dogma for this small group of posters is fair game. There are one or two who will immediately reply so I guess they have some kind of notification that I have posted and you can guarantee, whatever I say, they will find fault with it. Usually I am on my own so it has made a pleasant change on this thread to have other people posting similar things although the usual suspects still hone in on my posts, bless ‘em. I suppose I should be proud in some ways. I have always said if my posts wind up a certain type of poster I must be doing something right 🤔. People who support the likes of Farage, Johnson, Robinson, Hopkins,Trump, Patel, Braverman, etc and are xenophobes, misogynists, homophobic etc ( you get the picture) deserve to have their views called out. I am sure they are old enough and ugly enough to handle it. It does make me chuckle to be called “lonely” though when these people have nothing better to do with their lives than attack a complete stranger on social media. Just off to have lunch with friends 😉.

This is an interesting article. https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/gaza-invasion-israel-west-crisis I had forgotten how many unsavoury regimes various Israeli governments have supported over the years. And if I am lonely, what does that make the people who spend all day on here looking for an argument? You spend far more time here than I do hypo so I am guessing you have nothing better to do with your time? I post opinions. No one holds a gun to your head and forces you to “joust” with me. It’s telling that the only people who “joust” are always the same old posters that would find others to argue with even if I didn’t post here.

So is whinging about losing football matches or playing out from the back, but people spend hours doing that too. Perhaps we should do away with all social media as it is pretty much all utterly irrelevant ?

A question for those who pour scorn on the peace marchers and MPs calling for an end to hostilities. If it was Hamas killing hundreds/thousands of civilians and laying waste to areas of Israel every day since 7th October, would you still be against peace marchers and MP’s calling for an end to hostilities? Would people “waving placards” still be “fuckwits” (now that, hypochondriac, is an insult, but it seems insulting people is ok in your book if you don’t like the targets). Another question. Assuming we all agree that Jewish Israelis have every right to live in peace and security in Israel, do you agree that Palestinian Muslims have the same rights in Gaza and the West Bank? If so, why is the murder of civilians not acceptable in one case and acceptable in another? Despite the best efforts of some, we still live in a democracy and have the right to protest if we think that something is wrong. Over the years people have taken to the streets for all manor of causes, votes for women,the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, the ending of apartheid, against the poll tax, in support of the miners, against the use of fossil fuel and many to support the end of various conflicts. Just because you may not agree with the cause, it doesn’t make the people taking to the streets or putting pressure on the government to change their position “fuckwits”. Yes, there will always be a few who just pitch up for a ruck, but they are a small minority. The more people call out against the mass killing of civilians, the more pressure is put on the governments to speak out against the actions of the IDF rather than standing with them, the more the people with real power to put pressure on the Israeli government will do so. The minute Biden tells Netanyahu enough is enough, things will change and that will only happen when there is enough external pressure to force Biden to act. It has been suggested that Netanyahu has been given two more weeks with a free rein for the IDF before he will be told that is it now and back off. I’m not sure how many more innocent men, women, children and babies will be killed in that time or how much more damage will be done to the infrastructure to Gaza which will make living there a nightmare, but I think it is pretty obvious to most people that this will only stop when the people supporting Netanyahu tell him to stop. Of course it isn’t going to take 40 years this time (what a dumb thing to suggest and if I had done it you would have been all over me). The more pressure put on world leaders to change their position, the sooner there will be meaningful moves to stop the hostilities. One “fuckwit” waving a placard isn’t going to change a thing. Millions of “fuckwits” waving placards all around the world will make a difference. The numbers are growing daily.