um pahars

Can also remember it well. We played Luton in a friendly a couple of weeks after it happened and the game was abandoned due to fog. We then walked down Hill Lane to the bus station and as we passed the Tom & Tackle we were shtting ourselves as the Fog was swirling around and the 3 or 4 of us schoolboys were adamant we were all going to be lynched by the psycho stalking the streets!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I can see Forest and Norwich only getting 3 (maybe even less given their opposition), so in effect we'd actually claw back a point on them.

I've been saying for quite a while that it will go to the wire, but I may have to reconsider that prediction if things go pear shaped over those three games!!!! As you say, our run of three games is by far the easiest of those in the mire, so any slip ups could well be fatal. Personally think we will pick up 4 -7 points which will keep us in the hunt.

We're still up against it that's for sure, but we have not yet been cut adrift!!! Barnsley have two games in hand and might get away a little bit, but I still think we won't be that far behind them, and Forest, Norwich and even Plymouth are within striking distance. We might be away, btu Blackpool aren't too clever and those around us have tough games!!!! Next week: Barnsley away at Derby (not easy) but have agame at home v Palace midweek Forest home to Wolves (toughie) Norwich are away at Birmingham (toughie) Plymouth home to Burnley (hard game) Following week is interesting as someone has to drop points: Barnsely v Forest Blackpool v Plymouth Norwich v Sheff Weds Still think it will go to the wire.

Normally, when I see a thread or a line of debate or argument that is unimportant or irrelevant to me, then I just scroll on down or ignore it. Always find it funny how people have to tell us what they find unimportant by posting on the very thread they find unimportant;) Now we have a worthwhile contribution;). I totally agree. If Wotte keeps us up he would have performed extremely well and turned around something many would have thought impossible (or at least very dificult to achieve). Then it would be take stock in the summer and make the right decision going forward, as we cannopt afford to repeat the mistakes of last summer.

As long as we win. With a couple of relegation rivals playing each other and Forest away at 6th placed Burnley, we can get out of the relegation spots. Would this be the perfect set of results Saints win. Forest lose at Burnley Norwich lose to Plymouth (Plymouth get away but we go above Norwich - a draw is not unbearable) Barnsley beat Blackpool (only questionable one, but I'm going on Barnsley's games in hand on us, Blackpool freefalling and alos us having to play them - suppose a draw could be OK). BUT WE HAVE TO WIN FIRST!!!!!!!!!! 2-0 Saints

I did, and my reply was also aimed at NickG who is intimating that Wotte was solely Academy Director and his involvement with the first team was minor (and that he did not have the title of Assistant First Team Coach). Whilst Poortvliet had the final say on first team affairs (well most parts of it), there can be no doubt that Wotte (& others BTW) played an integral part in assisiting and advising Poortvliet in first team matters. Of course he had other duties, hence the dual role, but if you had ever gone down to Staplewood then you would have seen first hand his involvement with the first team. It certainly wasn't minor. Even though Henderson & Hockaday also had the titles of Assistant First Team Coach / First Team Assistant Coach, Wotte was always the more prominent of the three and was de facto assistant to Poortvliet as outlined in many articles and demonstrated by how he was often wheeled out by the Club/OS for first team affairs (commenting pre and prior matches, signing players, speaking at the post AGM Q & A's etc etc etc). That certainly wasn't minor. My reply to you was more to do with how Wotte was titled (as you said you had never seen him referred to as Assistant First Team Coach), but he had always been Academy Director/Assistant First team Coach. If you look at the OS I'm sure it has Henderson down as Youth Team Coach/First Team Assistant Coach.

Apart from: "shareholders were joined by Saints head coach Jan Poortlviet (JP) and Assistant First Team Coach/Academy Director Mark Wotte..." "the intention is that the four coaches will mix and match in a seamless structure..." "It is a team of four who will work together and take responsibility for coaching all our players..." "Wotte said 'My role is to assist Jan...'" "He will work closely with Mark Wotte in tandem..." He (Wotte) added: " A lot of coaches want to take all the decisions but Jan is very open minded and we will discuss everything and work as a team..." "The new management duo are coming in without any pre-conceived ideas....." "He was brought in on loan by Nigel Pearson who has since been replaced by Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte..." Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant. "I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in" "Dutch coach Wotte is also eager to see how the latest arrival will integrate with the squad's younger members" I really could go on, but it's rather late................

And I have consistently said I am more than happy to judge Wotte by his performances, and I said a week or so ago that his current form is mid tableish: He indeed does have a very good point, because the recent mini revivial under Wotte just goes to show what might have been possibe had we gone down the more "traditional" route from the first game of the season, as opposed to some Revolutionary Set Up playing Total Football. Rather than being embroiled in a relegation battle, we could have had many more wins under our belt, dare I say many more bums on seats and then arguably much more wonga coming in, with maybe even the possibility of strengthening the team in the January window to push on even further. A Virtuous circle as opposed to the viscous one under Poortvliet. If Wotte keeps us up, then arguably our form will have to be akin to mid table stuff (if not higher). But by the same token it would also mean that the points ratio immediately before Pearson took over was abysmal. Ultimatley the Wotte v Pearson argument can never be proven either way due to the variables in play, but just as Pearson could be deemed a success for keeping us up, then I think the same criteria will apply to Wotte. But my main beef on this thread was NickG and others airbrushing the role Wotte played in those first 28 games and trying to suggest his role with the first team was minor, when as Assistant First Team Coach I would like that person to be playing a major role in the first team.

If you want to go around stating, "he was never said to be joint first team manager, asst first team manager or anything close" only to be shown he was indeed the Assistant First Team Coach/Manager and then get all prissy and call it playing games with words, then you carry on. I don't see many supporters having a problem judging him by his results since he has had full control, but it has been quite rightly pointed out that in his role as Assistant First team Coach he should accept his share of responsibility as his contribution was much more than the "minor" one you and others would lead us to believe.

I don't see any reason why we can't win this one. 3-1 for me. Just not sure what we want from the other games, draws or the teams further away from us winning???

The Revolutionary Coaching Set Up demonstrate "Total Bowling" to the English

You have changed your tune somewhat as you started off with: when in fact he was the assistant first team manager (or assistant first team coach as Poortvliet never got the manager moniker). And: Being the Assistant First Team Manager/Coach is hardly having a "minor involvement". Of course he was not the main driver of the team, I don#t think anyone has suggested that, but I would suggest that his involvement was far from minor and his role as Assistant First team Coach has him heavily involved in first team affairs.

So he was only involved in the bits that went well then??? And there are numerous quotes and examples of his involvement in the first team, it's just you choose to ignore them for some reason. And to finish it off, alongside his Academy Director role, he was also Assistant First Team Coach, which I imagine would be assisting the first team coach with the running/coaching of the first team.

If we get relegated, then personally I would have to say get rid, not least because of his involvement in the first 28 games where the damage was done. On the other side of the coin, if he keeps us up then I think he deserves another crack of the whip having redeemed himself. I'm sure there's some middle ground (i.e. what if we go down fighting, or, what if we stay up but play really badly), but going back to the OP I think I would get rid if we get relegated.

The introduction to the Q & A's following the AGM on the Official Site is as follows: Following today's AGM for Southampton Leisure Holdings PLC, shareholders were joined by Saints head coach Jan Poortlviet (JP) and Assistant First Team Coach/Academy Director Mark Wotte (MW), who spent an hour answering any footballing questions......... The full transcript is in here and Wotte is all over it answering questions involving first team affairs. http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/articles/article.php?page_id=11129 All who I have spoken to at the Club are clear that Wotte was very much involved in the first team under Poortvliet's stewardship. To suggest otherwise is rewriting history.

If you're trying to pin down Wotte to specific mistakes, then once again I think you are trying to polarise the discussion. Wotte was an integral part of the Seamless Revolutionary Coaching Set Up. I do believe that Poortvliet had the last say on "most" things, but Wotte was central to the original philosophy along with a few others. A day or so in Wotte was already giving interviews on how the first team would be playing, he said, "We like a passing, attacking game and we like to play with wingers". Go to this link when Wotton signed and you will see that Wotte is all over it: http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=10234 In particular, the line by Wotton that says, "I met mark Wotte and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in". Wotte was very much involved at the business end of things from May until when Poortvliet got the elbow and neither he, nor the Club, were shy in telling us that.

Would I be right in saying all of these quotes were after he had got the job??? In which case, in the interests of fairness, perhaps you should go back and put up some quotes when he was a part of the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up (when they would go out to pubs to meet the fans together, when they would give press interviews/conferences together, when he spoke about his involvement in signing players and when they answered questions after the AGM together). Wotte was an integral part of the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up, of that there can be no doubt (after all we were told this enough), to what extent is up for debate, but I do find the air brushing of his involvement in the first 28 games somewhat disconcerting. I think he has done well since he was appointed and I hope he does well going forward, it's just I find hanging Poortvliet out to dry to be somewhat excusing others who contributed quite a bit to that disastrous period.

And have to agree with that as well. I was never one for spending money we never had, I was just up for spending it more intelligently.

Have to agree Chez. I have no problem accepting that money is tight, but I would then say that if you haven't got much then you should be even more careful how you spend it!!!! There's always a risk when you dabble in the transfer & loan markets (i.e. some come off and some don't), but we have had an extremely poor return this season.

Thanks for highlighting that Wigley cracker;) I gave up reading it after the first line when he couldn't even get right who Souness joined after he left us!!!!!!! nickh has never been hot when it comes to facts;)

But it's not just solely about who is on the board, it's more about developing a sense of togetherness and engendering empathy with supporters. Developing a belief that those on charge do care, are doing their best, they do have a plan and being able to create a rallying call that the supporters believe in and are willing to support. In the absence of major success on the pitch, Norwich have certainly managed to get their supporters to respond to their rallying call (I just don't see Lowe/Wilde being able to pull off the same).

Norwich have had some relative success since the 70's and I reckon they must have had something like 20 years in the top flight since we got relegated in 1974. It is impossible to say one way or the other, but I think that post Chase they have had a Board with whom the supporters have some empathy with and they have engendered a spirit of togetherness.