um pahars

After 38 games last season we had 45 points. In the last 8 games we amassed a further 9 points (W2 D3 L3) to finish on 54 points. So we're about 6 points behind where we were at this point last season, but don't think survival will be 53 points this season (anyway I hope not as 14 points from 8 games is a big ask!!! It would be something like W4 D2 L2 or W3 D5 L0).

I didn't rule that out;)

Definitely the same person. Upon his return under his new guise, it didn't take him too long to slip back into the old ways and start rounding and abusing certain individuals. To ensure he didn't get the elbow again, he obviously tried to mix these tirades with more reasoned posts, but ultimately he couldn't keep up the facade for too long before it cracked again. The new improved version was too often interspersed with the old Flashman/Sundance etc. And I don't think he is anyone of importance and certainly not the names banded about on here (along with Marland as some believe). I may not agree with the strategy and execution of Lowe and co., but they are not that bad!!!

And why weren't you saying the same when you wanted rid of Poortvliet??? I don't remember there being a shortlist of managers in circulation during that period. You were more than happy to suggest Poortvliet should be sacked without being told who was going to replace him. What is the difference between suggesting a manager should be sacked without knowing who the replacement is and suggesting we should trade in one CEO for another????

Back to back wins against Donny and Norwich shot us up from 20th to the heady heights of 16th!!!!!!!!

But once again you fail to grasp the reality of the situation. To suggest the reason for their non attendance is irrelevant, spectacularly misses the point. Supporters have voted with their feet because what is being served up under the leadership of the current board is poor. It's as simple as that. Of course supporters can make a difference and of course they have a choice, but many will not make a choice that is favourable to the Club unless something changes (be it on or off the pitch). It's head in the sand thinking just to dismiss their reasons for not turning up. We have a hard core of loyal supporters who will turn out come what may, but we have lost many thousands from the middle ground due to the direct and iundirect actions of those in charge. The cause of the missing millions in revenue is not the middle ground supporters who no longer come, but those in charge of the Club who provide them with no reason to come.

You must have a poor memory nickh as this is our league positions throughout the first 25 games: 18 23 17 20 23 22 20 20 16 20 20 21 22 22 20 21 21 20 20 19 19 20 21 21 21 We had been in the relegation spots or thereabouts for almost all of the season. We didn't have a bad run from game 23 or 24 onwards, we had been poor from the off (apart from the odd game where we over achieved)

Surely a contradiction as what influence do supporters hold if when they flex their financial muscle, you then criticise them by suggesting they are putting the Club at risk. In addition, I find it difficult to understand the rationale of your constant blaming of the fans for the mire we find ourselves in (and now find it doubly difficult to understand how you accept they have financial muscle, yet they shouldn't use it). If a tranche of fans have walked away from the Club, then ultimatley that is their choice and considering what they have been offered as entertainment in return for their hard earned dosh, then I can understand why many have turned away. It's not something unique to us, as despite one or two isolated cases, attendances would have fallen at similar clubs in similar circumstances. Rather than moan or criticise supporters, we should be looking at the crass management that has allowed this Club to fall so far. A classic case of looking at, and blaming the sympton, as opposed to identifying and rectifying the underlying cause. The supporters of this Club (whether they still go or not) have not put this Club at risk, it is the failed policies of those entrusted to run it in recent years that have ensured that has happened. As for this particular initiative, then I have to say it falls down on almost every angle that I try to look at it from.

Many would of course argue that the first 23-24 games were also relevant!!!!! If sticking with Poortvliet for 4-5 games too long was foolish, then I have to say the initial appointment and the 24-28 games was an abject disaster.

Can also remember it well. We played Luton in a friendly a couple of weeks after it happened and the game was abandoned due to fog. We then walked down Hill Lane to the bus station and as we passed the Tom & Tackle we were shtting ourselves as the Fog was swirling around and the 3 or 4 of us schoolboys were adamant we were all going to be lynched by the psycho stalking the streets!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I can see Forest and Norwich only getting 3 (maybe even less given their opposition), so in effect we'd actually claw back a point on them.

I've been saying for quite a while that it will go to the wire, but I may have to reconsider that prediction if things go pear shaped over those three games!!!! As you say, our run of three games is by far the easiest of those in the mire, so any slip ups could well be fatal. Personally think we will pick up 4 -7 points which will keep us in the hunt.

We're still up against it that's for sure, but we have not yet been cut adrift!!! Barnsley have two games in hand and might get away a little bit, but I still think we won't be that far behind them, and Forest, Norwich and even Plymouth are within striking distance. We might be away, btu Blackpool aren't too clever and those around us have tough games!!!! Next week: Barnsley away at Derby (not easy) but have agame at home v Palace midweek Forest home to Wolves (toughie) Norwich are away at Birmingham (toughie) Plymouth home to Burnley (hard game) Following week is interesting as someone has to drop points: Barnsely v Forest Blackpool v Plymouth Norwich v Sheff Weds Still think it will go to the wire.

Normally, when I see a thread or a line of debate or argument that is unimportant or irrelevant to me, then I just scroll on down or ignore it. Always find it funny how people have to tell us what they find unimportant by posting on the very thread they find unimportant;) Now we have a worthwhile contribution;). I totally agree. If Wotte keeps us up he would have performed extremely well and turned around something many would have thought impossible (or at least very dificult to achieve). Then it would be take stock in the summer and make the right decision going forward, as we cannopt afford to repeat the mistakes of last summer.

As long as we win. With a couple of relegation rivals playing each other and Forest away at 6th placed Burnley, we can get out of the relegation spots. Would this be the perfect set of results Saints win. Forest lose at Burnley Norwich lose to Plymouth (Plymouth get away but we go above Norwich - a draw is not unbearable) Barnsley beat Blackpool (only questionable one, but I'm going on Barnsley's games in hand on us, Blackpool freefalling and alos us having to play them - suppose a draw could be OK). BUT WE HAVE TO WIN FIRST!!!!!!!!!! 2-0 Saints

I did, and my reply was also aimed at NickG who is intimating that Wotte was solely Academy Director and his involvement with the first team was minor (and that he did not have the title of Assistant First Team Coach). Whilst Poortvliet had the final say on first team affairs (well most parts of it), there can be no doubt that Wotte (& others BTW) played an integral part in assisiting and advising Poortvliet in first team matters. Of course he had other duties, hence the dual role, but if you had ever gone down to Staplewood then you would have seen first hand his involvement with the first team. It certainly wasn't minor. Even though Henderson & Hockaday also had the titles of Assistant First Team Coach / First Team Assistant Coach, Wotte was always the more prominent of the three and was de facto assistant to Poortvliet as outlined in many articles and demonstrated by how he was often wheeled out by the Club/OS for first team affairs (commenting pre and prior matches, signing players, speaking at the post AGM Q & A's etc etc etc). That certainly wasn't minor. My reply to you was more to do with how Wotte was titled (as you said you had never seen him referred to as Assistant First Team Coach), but he had always been Academy Director/Assistant First team Coach. If you look at the OS I'm sure it has Henderson down as Youth Team Coach/First Team Assistant Coach.

Apart from: "shareholders were joined by Saints head coach Jan Poortlviet (JP) and Assistant First Team Coach/Academy Director Mark Wotte..." "the intention is that the four coaches will mix and match in a seamless structure..." "It is a team of four who will work together and take responsibility for coaching all our players..." "Wotte said 'My role is to assist Jan...'" "He will work closely with Mark Wotte in tandem..." He (Wotte) added: " A lot of coaches want to take all the decisions but Jan is very open minded and we will discuss everything and work as a team..." "The new management duo are coming in without any pre-conceived ideas....." "He was brought in on loan by Nigel Pearson who has since been replaced by Dutch duo Jan Poortvliet and Mark Wotte..." Wotton said: "I am thrilled and honoured to be signing for Southampton. The new man, who joins on a three year deal, was particularly impressed by Saints' new-look approach, as explained to him by Jan Poortvliet's Dutch assistant. "I met Mark Wotte yesterday and he spoke very well. I was impressed by him and the way he wants to play football and how he sees me fitting in" "Dutch coach Wotte is also eager to see how the latest arrival will integrate with the squad's younger members" I really could go on, but it's rather late................

And I have consistently said I am more than happy to judge Wotte by his performances, and I said a week or so ago that his current form is mid tableish: He indeed does have a very good point, because the recent mini revivial under Wotte just goes to show what might have been possibe had we gone down the more "traditional" route from the first game of the season, as opposed to some Revolutionary Set Up playing Total Football. Rather than being embroiled in a relegation battle, we could have had many more wins under our belt, dare I say many more bums on seats and then arguably much more wonga coming in, with maybe even the possibility of strengthening the team in the January window to push on even further. A Virtuous circle as opposed to the viscous one under Poortvliet. If Wotte keeps us up, then arguably our form will have to be akin to mid table stuff (if not higher). But by the same token it would also mean that the points ratio immediately before Pearson took over was abysmal. Ultimatley the Wotte v Pearson argument can never be proven either way due to the variables in play, but just as Pearson could be deemed a success for keeping us up, then I think the same criteria will apply to Wotte. But my main beef on this thread was NickG and others airbrushing the role Wotte played in those first 28 games and trying to suggest his role with the first team was minor, when as Assistant First Team Coach I would like that person to be playing a major role in the first team.

If you want to go around stating, "he was never said to be joint first team manager, asst first team manager or anything close" only to be shown he was indeed the Assistant First Team Coach/Manager and then get all prissy and call it playing games with words, then you carry on. I don't see many supporters having a problem judging him by his results since he has had full control, but it has been quite rightly pointed out that in his role as Assistant First team Coach he should accept his share of responsibility as his contribution was much more than the "minor" one you and others would lead us to believe.

I don't see any reason why we can't win this one. 3-1 for me. Just not sure what we want from the other games, draws or the teams further away from us winning???