um pahars

The Taylor Report and other research would not agree with this anecdotal evidence. Taylor dismisses the notion of ticketless fans as being a major problem. Additionally various methods of counting the fans at the Leppings Lane end agree that the total in the Leppings Lane end was within the capacity of the day, but the problem was that once inside the outer "concourse" then too many funnelled their way down in to the middle pens. Footage at the time showed that whilst the middle sections were over crowded, the end sections and particularly the Northe West corner section were nowhere near full. If you had even been to Hillsborough before that day then you would be aware that once through the turnstiles you had a sterile outside concourse area and then faced with three or four tunnels going under the stand channelling you to one of 4 or 5 penned areas to stand. Sorry, Kraken, didn't see your response that should be enough to put this myth to bed. However, I did include the bit about my personal experience of the Leppings Lane End as having been there it is easy to see how you could have been channelled through those tunnels under then stands (like very small subways) on to a packed terrace without being aware of it. From the outside "concourse" you couldn't see the various pens so would have no idea if they were empty or full.

Good shout, the game where Gus Poyet would have spontaneously combusted had he been in charge of Brighton back then!!

Surprised it's taken this long to get to this as other matches have been done this way for a few years now. Like Mr Grant, I will be interested to see if it's replicated going the other way (something tells me it won't!!!!). That said the arrangements for sorting out the tickets seems so cumbersome, print this form off, send/hand this form in, await for e-mail, then come and pick it up etc etc etc. Better off getting a ticket in the home end when they go on General Sale down there and saving yourself the hassle

Wouldn't have thought so as we hit second place after going on a 9 game unbeaten run after losing the semi final. Might have been possible when we went away to Ipswich in February 1982, when we were top and Ipswich were either 2nd or 3rd. (not the best omen though as we lost 5-2!!!!!!!!)

I believe the current issue is not another round of police bashing, nor an ambulance chase, but instead a push to get all the evidence in the public domain mainly to try and understand why/if people pushed/sanctioned the original myths/cover up (myths which appear to have stood the test of time if this thread is anything to go by). The view (and I am not swayed either way until the evidence is out there) is that there was a widespread conspiracy (at least further than those officers onthe day) within the establishment to try and exonerate the police/authorities and to push the blame elsewhere and that this went to the top of the Establishment (including parts of the media).

Taylor is quite clear that the main factor was the "the actions of the Police" and I think you may have been somewhat harsh on him if you think that came easy to him. If anything, I would have thought he found it quite difficult to rule that a part of the establishment was mainly to blame (which leads on to the conspiracy issues where other parts of the esatblishment were only too happy to try and exonerate the Police and pass the blame elsewhere, which is where the recent debate is focussed). And Talyor does not shy away from stating that he believed actions of the fans played their part as well, it's all clear in the report and subsequent analysis.

I would quite agree, and I have no problem with people coming to their own opinion or viewpoint about any number of issues. But I think it would be somewhat more acceptable if they had taken time to review and evaluate the evidence involved, as opposed to just trotting out so many of the myths that have been spun over the years.

As with Frank, with all due respect I would rather go with Lord Justice Taylor's view on how wide he felt his remit was as opposed to yours. Not being patronising, I just think he is/was a lot closer to the action than you are/were. Indeed there is, but you claimed "he is not blaming the police", which is patently incorrect. Taylor goes on to mention other factors, but his main reason for the disaster was relating to the Police.

"My terms of reference are extremely wide". And you have obviously not read the Report if you don't think he doesn't blame the Police, "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control" or the ground.

The Leppings Lane end held just under 15,000 so just as when we went there in 1984 with similar numbers, we were still well short of the 15,000 or so trying to be accomodated on that fateful day. However, as Taylor pointed out, "My father & grandfather stood safely on this terrace" is not really the most convincing argument to put forward. And I don't doubt that the human element, the dynamic environment and crowd psychology played a part on that day, and Taylor does not ignore this, but in his findings he said they were secondary factors.

Totally at odds with what Lord Justice Taylor said regarding the Hillsborough disaster and as much as I like you Frank, I think he is somewhat more qualified and better briefed than you on the subject.

If you are that interested in the issues of the day, Google the Taylor Report and read it properly. Then come back and debate the issues at hand. I really don't want to get drawn in to debunking the various myths that were propagated at the time, after all someone far more qualified with more evidence than I have ever seen has already debunked them. It's just a pity that once the mud was thrown it has tended to stick. But my only contribution to answering your question would be that I very much doubt if the Leppings Lane terrace had to cope with 10,000 fans on that many occasions. When it did in 1981 during a FA Cup Semi Final between Spurs and Wolves, their were something like 40 crush injuries on the very same terrace. There were also reports of crushing in the 1988 semi final.

What is quite clear to me is that too many people on this thread are posting without having read The Taylor Report and instead are relying on the discredited, ill informed and disingenuous media reporting of the time (the myths of that reporting are still with us today). Ticketless fans, drunken hoardes, gates being smashed down - all myths put about by people attempting to deflect the blame and all dismissed by the Taylor Report. If you really want a simple and straightforward background to events on that day and what the current debate is all about, then Steve Rotherham's opening gambit in last nights speech is a good place to start. He quickly dispels some of the myths, lies and innuendo that still persist if this thread is anything to go by. As someone who stood on that terrace five years earlier in a quarter final of the FA Cup, the "There but for the grace of God" line resonates with me!!! http://http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2011/10/17/hillsborough-debate-liverpool-mp-steve-rotheram-s-opening-speech-in-full-100252-29611412/

No worries fella and glad you're sorted now (considering you're the fella who helps others out on a regular basis, it was the least I could offer to do). Recovering from a hernia op and just need to step up the walking as have been fairly immobile recently.

Well I've found out how to access the camera in a hurry without having to faff around and put your password in. Double click the Square button at bottom of screen and you get the camera icon bottom right so you can start clicking straoght away (and the volume up button is easy to use as the capture button).

I'll take a stroll up tomorrow morning for you if you want. Need some exercise and motivation to get off of my sick bed so let me know

Basically, I just disagree that someone should be called foolish just because their initial opinion of a player turns out to be a littel bit wide of the mark. And in the example of Hooiveld it's way too early to even consider whether he's a good, bad or an indifferent signing, and I certainly wouldn't call someone who was optimistic about his signing a fool if his form slips away and he has a few stinkers.

And it might also be the position a player plays, in that forwards often attract more of a positive spin as opposed to strapping, kick 'em up in the air centre halfs (although that doesn't account for my underwhleming emotions when we signed Forte and loaned in that other forward who so underwhlemed me that I've forgotten his name already). But why does posting your initial gut feel on here, whether it be one of being underwhlemed, or one of great enthusiasm mean so much? It's a nothing opinion, posted by anonymous people on the ether of the interweb that will not influence how the player performs or impact our success one way or the other. Football has been about holding and espousing different opinions for years, but for some reason some people seem to get all worked up that someone might have an opinion that is different from theirs. Looking in from the outside, Hooiveld appeared to be way down on Adkins list when we were looking to strengthen over the summer, so even though he is now our second best centre half (TBH he only has Martin to compete against!!!), I don't see anything wrong with suggesting we might be needing to look again come January. He's only started six league games, and looked shaky in a few of them, so it is a bit early to judge him either way. And as for your last line, I do struggle with the reasoning and sentiments (and that's not because he's only played six games), but more because the tone and thrust is just so unwarranted and unnecessary on a message board where people shouldn't be berated because they felt something different.

Read C B Fry's posts #18 & #24 as I think it sums it up excellently. I was excited about Do Prado and De Ridder, I was underwhelmed by Forte and Hooiveld, yet had about as much knowledge on one lot as I did on the other. It's an opinion based on close to feck all and espoused on the noddy interweb. All four got and still get my full support when they play (and will be more than happy to post I had misjudged them, as I did with Shearer, when they start turning in match winning performances).

And let's not forget that this is the anonymous ether of the interweb and daring to post your own opinion, be non plussed or even underwhelmed should not be confused with a lack of support at an actual football match. Once a player pulls on the shirt, then they will always get my full support at a match, despite any reservations I may have about their ability or contribution to the team (OK, I did berate Steve Baker for a while after that terrible 1988 match!!). I'd rather take that approach as opposed to switching from singing "There's Only One Alan Pardew" to "Cortese, whoooah, Cortese whooah" over the course of a season. As for the player himself, well the juries still out for me and would wait a bit longer before committing one way or the other (I still need convincing you see). And as others have touched upon, it also depends on the fee and what other alternatives there are in the market come January or June. At the moment I certainly would not say he is player who we need to get signed up PDQ before someone else comes sniffing or Celtic change their mind.

Predicted and happy with a draw before the game, then heard Lallana was out, so definitely happy with a draw, then saw we were one down almost from kick off so really happy with a draw. Then saw how much possession we had and heard some feedback from friends who were there ans was a tad disappointed with a point!!!!!!! Have to be happy at still being top, taking a point at promotion rivals and then apparently playing so well.

Read that on the net and being a cider drinking was interested. RecKon it would work with vodka sloes????? And any cider recommended???

At least Manji has a modicum of intelligence and has finally seen the light with regards his ole hero, the Gloucestershire Farmer, whereas your good self, well, I think it would be a tad unfair to go there. Rhodesia me up LOL

Two things that come out of this for me: Firstly, did he really think he could get away with having a privately funded advisor outside of Whitehall Civil Service arranging, sitting in and socialising with foreign dignitaries, industry contractors, interested parties and lobbyists. Once again is it another Politician thinking they are above the normal rules. Surely he must have realised it was going to come out, so did he think he could bat it away? Or if he didn't realise it was a problem then you have to question the morals, integrity and judgement of someone on such an important and sensitive position. Secondly, Cameron once again comes out of this looking weak, indecisive and out of touch.

Rubbish!!!!!!!! Everyone can remember the Fitzhugh Fella thread where he posted everything wasn't OK behind the scenes and Pardew was a dead man walking in the early summer and the responses that brought. Couldn't have been true, could it????