bridge too far

Stuff going on in Hackney too. Boys from all races from what I see on the TV reports.

Who would you send 'home', Stanley?

Two quick points: 1. I'm not defending the rioting and looting. I think it's disgraceful and I feel very sorry for the innocent folk in the area who have had their homes and businesses destroyed. They must be feeling very frightened. 2. I understood from the article that the reason that the dead man's family were there much longer than they'd planned was because no senior police officer came to talk to them. That is very wrong. Oh, and a third point - what gives you the right to label the dead man's brother 'a nasty person and probably capable of setting fires to police cars'? Do you know the man? I don't and I've formed no opinion about him, other than he's grieving for his dead brother.

Sorry it's a bit long, but this might answer your question: The Guardian's crime correspondent, Sandra Laville, reports: The revelation will fuel the fury in Tottenham about the killing of Mark Duggan by armed officers. It also undermines suggestions that there was an exchange of fire between Duggan and the police before he died. The bullet which was found lodged in the radio of one of the officers at the scene is still undergoing forensic tests. But reliable sources have said the first ballistics examinations suggested it was a police issue bullet. These are very distinct as the Metropolitan Police uses dum dum type hollowed out bullets designed not to pass through an object. The early suggestion from the IPCC was that the Met officers had returned fire after someone in the minicab opened fire. But the result of the ballistics early test suggests both shots fired came from the police.

Yes I know that, and that was kind of the point I made in an earlier post when I said "'And that, somehow, it's their fault a load of disaffected youths decided to loot and riot?" I lived in North London (many years ago 'tis true) and it was pretty rough then.

Duggan's fiancee, Semone Wilson, 29, said the family had not wanted trouble, only answers. "When we were outside the police station last night we wanted someone to come out. We want some answers. I have not even told my children that he is dead because we cannot give them any answers." Of the violence, Wilson said: "I am not happy about what has happened. We didn't want this trouble. We wanted some answers." Shaun Hall, Duggan's older brother, said the family was "not condoning any kind of actions like that at all, or for this [action] to be taken in my brother's name". He appealed to people in the community who were frustrated and angry to "try and hold it down". The family were "devastated" at his death, with "the most gruelling" thing for Duggan's parents being that nobody had officially informed them what had happened.

But the family and friends asking the questions were not the ones who turned violent. In fact there are some reports (unsubstantiated) that a police officer hit one of the family with a baton. It beggars belief that the police couldn't find a senior officer to come to talk to the family - unless of course they were too busy getting their reports to match (sarcastic comment and in no way implying that the police would lie). When people see politicians cheating on expenses, bankers earning millions in bonuses for failing (and making the rest of us pay the price) and police taking back-handers for information to a crooked press, is it any wonder ordinary people asking perfectly valid questions get frustrated when they get fobbed off without answers? I'd get frustrated too, if that happened to me. I wouldn't resort to violence, and from all that I've read, they didn't either. It was others, piggy-backing on their protest that caused the problems.

If I thought my partner / son / brother had been killed in, let's say, dubious circumstances, then yes I would ask my family and friends to go with me to the local police station to ask for answers. From the article: "If a senior police officer had come to speak to us, we would have left. We arrived at 5pm, we had planned a one-hour silent protest. We were there until 9pm. Police were absolutely culpable. Had they been more responsive when we arrived at the police station, asking for a senior officer to talk with the family, we would have left the vicinity before the unrest started. "It is unforgivable police refused dialogue. We know the history here – how can Tottenham have a guy killed by police on Thursday, and resist requests for dialogue from the community 48 hours later?"

As long as it's made clear that the two groups are disparate.

I reckon they'll show more tonight. They didn't show any P*mpey stuff at all (shame). It's a short programme at lunch time and the evening reports are usually longer.

So, are you saying that when people have legitimate questions that remain unanswered, they shouldn't have the right to make a peaceful protest? And that, somehow, it's their fault a load of disaffected youths decided to loot and riot? Or have I misunderstood you?

As should Boris - it's on his patch, after all! http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2011/aug/08/boris-johnson-holiday-london-rioting

Worth reading this whole article http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns

I think he's still recovering from his operation, TBF

No wonder he was as it was actually 2 - 0! Wotton was his usual 'friendly' self

I was at the Brentford match on Saturday with my son and grandson. The Bees love our Uwe already. I have to say, they played some very attractive football and made Yeovil look like amateurs! My son says Rosler's made a huge difference to them already.

Kicking off in Enfield now, apparently.

Some weird ones on there! I've signed 4 but I got bored with reading pages of them.

Meh That's what happens when you're retired and living with a Skate to boot

One strange thing. I'd had the original web page open and this was the link I tried to copy you in to. When it wouldn't work, and I tried all the stuff I've mentioned above, I assumed the page was dead. However, a link on the page (to a comment about the article) worked. When I tabbed back, the original web page had gone! Bizzarre!

Well, I tried to cut and paste - wouldn't work. So I tried to save the file - wouldn't save. And, as I said, I can't even get onto the front page now. Try using the information in my previous post, maybe you'll have more luck than me.

Hmmm I can't even get on the front page now. Anyone know what the domain 'ie' is? If anyone wants to try to get the front page and then do some searching, it is: thestory.ie Good luck!

Sorry guys - the link doesn't seem to be working. I still have the page up but I can't save it or cut and paste it so I guess there's a block on it.

Done - you'll all have to PM each other from now on.

*sigh* Done - don't you snitch on me