Frank's cousin

Make no apologies and freely admit I believe he WAS right on the finance strat in the Prem... is it not worth asking the question as to whether self sustaining policy is the right way forward - especially in light of what NC has planned and where we are currently with this? DP - cant leave before 12 as gotta pick up Father in law....

OK first up this is meant to be light hearted, not some forum fisticuff boll ox.... :)but CB Fry made an interesting point as well as others on one of the Finance threads concerning self sustainabilty - based on the concern that at present we are far from it, and how difficult is/was even in the prem - well lets be honest for a moment, because we have to admit that Southamption was one of the few clubs that brokeeven most years in the prem - sure this was supplemented now and again by a major sale, but in general the financials were always well balanced. Let's not argue about how badly the money was spent, or the number and frequency of managerial change, nor his arrogance etc - different issues and ones that have been done to detah, but was he right in the financial management given that: 1. We have seen what can happen if things are not controlled - especially in the extreme case with the Skates 2. Let's be honest about WGS - a decent bloke and good manager for us, but its pretty obvious he left because Rupes refused to fund the 12 mil + wages for Saha and Malbranque - he may have used a pathetic excuse about giving rivals money, but its pretty obvious that we could NOT afford such a spend and what it might do to the wage structure... do we nnow look on this any differently, as it seems to me the majority are now saying self sustainability is the right and proper thing to do? 3. Do fans now have a different attitude in general - would we still sing 'spend some feckin money'? even if we knew the books were balanced and the cash not available ? 4. We are fine now, spending way beyond the advised 50-60% max wage to turnover as the Liebherrs and NC always had the funds to cover this, but What would we have thought of Lowe had he borowed form banks or elsewhere 12-15 mil extra to fund WGS's wishes? madness or backing the manager? 5. Some of the more analytical went on about attracting investment - well this has never been explained to any real satisfaction. Share issues can raise money - but dilute the % value of the individual share holdings, unless the shareholders themselves purchase the additional shares - not all our shareholders had such capital and it is only really an attractive option if the investment funds generated truely add value to company - spending said cash on player wages would not have increased the clubs value, possibly decreased it as we would have been tied into 2 more expensive contracts. 6. A lot was made of 'lowe would step aside if someone invested 25 mil' - its been misinterpreted many times as some sort of 'sale' figure. This is not what he meant. It was really a throw-away comment in response to those caling for him to resign. He meat he would be happy for someone else to be chairman if they brough 25 mil into the club either through a new share issue or as a gift - then he would leave the cahirmans seat but retain his shareholding and possibly a board seat... pretty secure in teh knowledge that no one would invest that kind of cash in a club were it would not create any value - merely be swallowed up by operating costs - evn then it would not have seen us into the the top 8 regularly... The Liebherrs HAVE now which by the time next yaers accounts are published may in effct rise to 40mil - the difference is that there is value in that investment if we are promoted with the asset probably worth anywhere between 45-60 mil on promotion. Its why they want the club to be self sustaining when in the prem, because yo could blow 33 mil as a gift and see no return in value - it just flows out the door in inflated wages and agent fees. I do not believe they want to operate the club in that way. Be intersting to see how fans react if we stay within our budget - will we be satisfied with the results that that will potentially restricht us to... or will teh 'spend some feckin mone' brigade be out in force again?

Thing is, it was not a great time really - so much bitterness and vitriolic abuse kicking about, a right ***** fest on the boards - dug out some old PMs yesterday and jeez could some some 'eminent' posters be nasty little boys. The Lowe thing divided, created suspicion and was generally crap all round. I was just as guilty as as anyone in imagining dark forces at work, accusing folk of all sorts of agendas etc so some of the abuse was probably justified, even if the nature of it was surprizing. No one should take these boards seriously in anyway, but it is interesting lookig back how easy it is for these more 'political' threads to cause real anger and resentment amongst us board obsessed few.

NO worries, now paid up - will be good to hear form you - finally getting to a game again tomorrow!

Hi Weston - how's things? 'powerful friends?' sounds like you could tell us but would have to kill us Seriously though... for a change Dune has got me thinking - I remember we went into admin, the media mentioned and unknown Swiss bid - but because it was (in hindsight) serious, there was not a sniff to be had about it - and one by one the others dropped out .... then the unexpected share price rise .... then admin.... uhm....

Pyramid... ponsi... I wpould suggest to thos elooking to pledge their 1k, they would have more luck with one of those

Monkey Chicken Zoo.....

Glasters at your age... last time went was '90, James, primal scream, heat wave... i remember when Me and Ron met Saint Lee and he introdusced us to liflong - was expecting a besuited well groomed executive type... well wont say any more than:scared: that Should be a grand day out tomorrow! Tell ya what though this nostalgia lark is a bit of laugh though!

Excuse me, but who wants it both ways? Markus and NC saw a commercial opportunity. that is not mutually exclusive from also seeing something that in his retirment might be fun as well as something they could build together? Why is it beyond the realms of possibilty that having taken that step, developed a plan, acknowledged the need for funding to achieve its aims, acknowledged that with that investment came risk, and also the reaity that unlike other businesses the level of investment required would be high relative to the risk and potential return? ... that they actually found it possible a bond to the club - its the fan disease afterall - you go a few times, you love it and you get hooked? Its even not beyond the reasonable psychobable that such a bond is increased given the desire to see if they could build something together with it? Can you not see a situation, given the investment in infrastructure that NC and Markus knew would be necessar to be self sustaining would probably mean investing more than a typical buisness would need (afterall evryone with half a brain, let alone financiers and extremely successful businessmen) know football is an easy way to get poor very quickly? Self sustaining is the stated AIM - NC has said it, Markus said it and I believe they are working towards it - but with an acknowledgement that to get there they would need to be prepared to in effect buy the club for 50 mil... They could have done that and bought a lower tier debt free Prem club, but I suspect that the fact they built it is part of the orginal appeal - that was what Markus did for his working life afterall.

The justification is moot point - I have never been a big advocate of buying success or spending your way out of trouble in football - but everyone knows that it's easy to lose money and diffficult make it in this game as every penny earned is swallowed up as fans expect zero profit and every last available penny spent on improving the 1st team - we also know that teh lower leagues are notoriously difficult to escape from, especially you are the name club as those around you up their game to show billy big boll ox they are no longer the club they once were - so you need to at the very least be able to fend of interset in your better players and invest in quality that can deal with that an fight your way out as rapidly as possible - wise move? Well so far a spend of 33 mil for an assett worth around 25-20 right now, and probably 45-60 in the prem - seems a reasonable return to me - assuming there is someone who would pay that for it naturally, but I do think the spend was factored in from the beginning and therefore given taht its worked, you cant really fault the strategy

The irony being that as so many had been burned into believeing in copier salemen, might yacht owning yanks, barry briefcase and helpmerhonda - when rumours began circulating about a swiss banker and his firend, most laughed it off as another wind up...

Reminds me of the fine mr Lydon's words: 'ever get teh feeling you've been cheated' - got to laugh at yourself for being taken in for a moment - but in mitigation, my 'sources (:-)) were honorable... at the end of the day IMHO its the same reason why so many follow organised religions - as its easy pickings given so many want to believe. I do think its a shame saintlee got so much stic about all that, as whilst there were plenty who genuinely smlled an eary rat, there were more sticking the knife in who were simply envious that they were not 'ITK'

Sorry but that is naive at best and rather disengenuous - what you are saying that someone of Markus' and NCs background and experience would still gamble on 33 mil? Boll ox - It wa sstaed by NC very early on that Provision was made for the cub to build. There is not a cat in hells chnace that they would have comitted to that level of spending if the Loan to equity move was not always part of the plan - not sure why you cant see that they set a budget for a 5 year plan - a plan that would require a spending level that would need to be supported by cash injection if they were to guarrantee a return to the prem in that time - its why promotion from l1 became so important within 2 years , and why 2 years were probably factored in for further promotion. The risk was NOT in whether the loans would converted or not, they always were. the risk which both NC and Markus would have been fully aware of was that given its football they could have spent 50 mil in five years and NOT gotten into the prem - eg their limit was reached and they would have failed in their bid. This is a case where teh wage to turnover figure is not necessarily an accurate way of judging the merits of the business plan as the plan would have factored in an annual suplementary amount which would have been set by the final level of commercial and gate receipts - had they OVER SPENT massively on this budgeted amount it would have been a poor result, but we have been told this did not happen... so I really cant see why you believe its such a flawed strategy?

I remeber getting a hush hush phonecall on which the plans were revealed... I will not name th caller as it would be unfair (not weston by the way) - it was certainly appealing to thos ewho wanted to believe - must admit for a moment or two... sigh... sworn to deepest secrecy and all that - very clever these ego appealing trips -.... although the best was being introduced to LifelongSaint (before he was ousted as the copier man) and having him say he had Kevin Keegan and some other ex pros numbers on his mobile - it was at that point that I had the retire to the toilets in SMS to literally **** myself laughing....

Thing is when Mike Wilde and Leon showed up (both of whom would be classified in that bracket) most fans believed that was all you needed to run a football club with financial problems, recently relegated and a loss of 47% of your turnover...

NOt heard that before but if true, he did not deserve that - he tried hard they all did, but as someone at the time pointed out (might even ave been me), if you could have someho put Crouch (the fan), Wilde (the PR savvy face) and Lowe (the prudent) in a blender and created 1 boardmember it would probably make a good mix - had they been able to work together - it may have been a good compromise as they each brough something to the table.

Oh yes ..David Beckham - was going to invest in the academy ...kind of thing - very exciting it was thats for sure

I met Mike Wilde and desoite teh go wilde T shirts he was actually an OK guy, as was Crouch. The problem was that they both initially let the the fan frenzy go to their heads IMHO... They did not ahve teh experience of managing a footbal club and more importantly teh fans expectations in what were extremely difficult financial circles and without teh financial means to buy out all teh ahres and so avoid boardroom splits - they also appointed Tangoman and various other serial boardroom floaters whose decison to blow 7mil of cash reserves on a do or die promo chase nearly killed us off. By that time, Wilde in a desperate attempt to save some share value, swapped to the Lowe camp to try and use Rupe experience of managing on a crust to stave off the inevitable... it was already too late as we had failed to shift a few high earners... It was not that Wilde or Crouch were bad guys, maybe a little too influenced by fan ideals - just inexperienced as any of us would be in controling a situation when you have a fan base with expectations of investment...

Leon and Michial Wild dont count a sthey were actually part owners for a short spell... jeez I'm getting all sentimental now

What glorious days .. sigh.....

Yep Dan was the virtual cross dresser - Might actually have been TOMMAC as the sweaty bloke in the office... forgotten about him, good shout lady saint

needed a proper motor for The sexy nuns bein escorted to the ground - need yo an Ohio to keep em coming on the board mind just in case - amke sure Alps does his good luck thowing a woobly if we go 1-0 down - always a good sign for a saints fightback and 3pts

Think that was Ron somebody - cant remember his last name - obviously left a big impression

Next chapter wll be all about the PST and watching the various factions fight for board status... personnally my money is on TCWTB as chairman/CEO/CFO/TFRE (Toilet Fat removal executive)

Barry the Briefcase would have been the best by far - Dan Williams Ron somebody Paul Allen and his yacht sightings Failka and his mums piggybank no foties sorry