pap

Bwa-ha-ha!

Preliminary report on MH17 by the Dutch:- http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/sep/09/mh17-dutch-investigators-verdict-on-crash-over-ukraine-live-updates Video:- Flight MH17 broke up in mid-air as a result of structural damage caused by “a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside “ according to the Dutch investigators preliminary report. Sounds like "bullets" to my layman ears.

Let's see what the judgement is if people vote yes. As I said to Batman much earlier in the thread, the Queen won't be blaming Labour. Nice try though.

The Wee Blue Book reckons that Labour would have still won most post-War elections, with or without Scotland. http://theweebluebook.com/principles-and-politics.php I reckon the Tories just underestimated Salmond and the sentiment against them, overestimating both the appeal and likely state of Union post-referendum. Saving the Union on the eve of an election would surely have been mana from heaven for the Little Englander vote. However, as with most things, it's the implementation that has really let them down. Defeat from the jaws of victory?

I don't think that his point at all. The question is whether it is even reasonable to ask the question of Christians. You and I would get pretty tired, pretty quickly if we were forced to somehow accept the crimes of those because we bore a cultural or religious similarity to the perpetrators. Yet this is what we ask the "Muslim community" to do. As others have explained much more succinctly than I, there isn't really a Muslim community, just as there isn't an all-compassing Christian community you can readily put your hands on. If you take a look at the Muslim world, you see a group of nations that have very different ideas about how it should be practiced. Yet somehow, here, they're all the same, and our politicians make the unreasonable demand that we get a communal response from a thing that is not actually a community. Apart from subscription to some of the same core religious beliefs (such as the way all Christians see Jesus as the son of God), the only thing that unites these people is the external perception that they're all a bit dodgy, and the ridiculous demand that they collectively justify themselves. That's why I enjoyed seeing the shoe on other foot. The argument really doesn't get to walk that far.

This post is at best, very selective in its timeframe and at worst, nonsense. All of the home nations bar England got some measure of devolved government after Labour's win in 1997. Most of the pro-devolution crowd were reacting against policy in Westminster. In Scotland's case, that'd include being guinea pigs for the poll tax, that small thing which eventually brought Thatcher's government down when she tried to apply it to the rest of the country. I do think you're in a poor debating position, but it's got f**k all to do with the golf and probably everything to do with being a dim Tory. Not saying that you are permanently dim, or that every Tory is dim, but it's definitely how I'd characterise posts in which self-determination is apparently selective and all recorded history begins with the last Labour government.

Is it called Crikey?

Charlie Brooker, suitably excellent. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-david-cameron-no-campaign-windows-8

I prefer to think of it as an anti-shít politician agenda. It's quite far reaching; you may find it a little more eclectic than the "football team" of political support that you seem to be going in for. I'm happy to praise or find fault irrespective of political colour. Blair should be up on war crimes charges. Cameron was extremely dignified when handling the Hillsborough reports. I know that skews the results of your oil and water political experiment. As it should; Labour lost a huge amount of support over its policies in office, particularly Iraq. The Conservatives have been wracked on the European issue for decades. Both parties represent broad churches, the leadership rarely represents the membership and I feel that both of them have done tremendous harm in recent office. This entire justification is superfluous, btw. I only mention it because another forum soul, our píss-soaked crusader Batman, has also done the bias thing. It's probably that time.

Undroppable. :mad:

Slow to get going. Great goals. Life at top four club obviously suiting Welbeck.

Don't give a f##k about whataboutery. New Labour were a f##king shambles. What's your point?

Yes it's a sad experience that so many right wingers are unable to argue a single position. My contention is that this lot are a bandit government that are intent on selling the few remaining pieces of public property that are not nailed down, turning the country into a permanent earner for their rich friends, against their stated pre election aims.

Keep an eye on it, Phil. If he goes through a lean spell, your name-clanging golf stories might be preferable to the sullen company of a goal-shy blank merchant.

If you've a specific problem with one of my points about the Tories, why not try addressing it? Benefit of hindsight definitely, but this is looking like a barmy decision for them in the here and now. Cameron gambled on a yes-no vote, when the SNP were after Devo Max. He wanted to show strength, be the PM that saved the Union, and is now looking utterly powerless to do anything about it, relying on the proxies of Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling to try and hold things together. The Better Together campaign has been a bloody disaster from first to last, not least because those wry Scots bastards are experts at taking the píss. They tried to cow the Scottish electorate, make 'em feel unempowered, and it's backfired. The "F**k Yis" vote is rising, and I don't blame them. Anti-Tory agenda? Yeah, possibly - but they're all shít. Do you think my little rant on Labour selection policy is "on message"?

Holy fúcking shít, Batman. Think you might have cracked the case. Re: bletch's cui bono conspiracy theory question. It was BoJo, bletch! It was BoJo all along! Can we now start entertaining my "Boris is a Boys From Brazil style Aryan clone" theory?

This is bloomin' rich. Gordon Brown now leading the charge. Will be seen as the man who saved the Union if Scotland votes No on his proposed package. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-gordon-brown-tax-welfare-powers-timetable-labour And to think; many of us, myself included, had this down as a win-win for the Conservatives. Surely lose-lose now?

Labour's very English, very middle-class and very chosen at the moment. The latest announcements on selection policy are encouraging; the party realises that it just isn't on for millions to be spent on candidate selection - maybe we'll see long term change. In the meantime, expect more golden children parachuted into plush positions in favour of local candidates.

Now that the dust is settling on this encounter, I'd like to offer my final thoughts, Jerry Springer style. I mean for them to be constructive. I would have infinitely more respect for CB Fry's posts if he just demonstrated a bit of respect and restraint when making them. Too much of his input is of the "It is not enough that I succeed. Others must fail" school of thought, and I just don't see a decent reason for it. I genuinely think such an approach deters participation from would-be posters, and as such, isn't in the best interests of the site. I get equally frustrated by a lot of the stuff I see on here, but have a reasonably active thoughts-to-posts filter going on. There will be plenty of times I think an opinion deserves a four-letter verbal accompaniment, but comparatively few where I write it down. The huge shame of it is that when you chip away the insults, you see some very interesting posts from an obviously capable poster. CB Fry could have spent years acquiring the quiet respect of most people on here, which is a path I genuinely hope he takes, even though it'd do huge harm to my own range of reactionary responses I did enjoy saintbletch's baiting here. The man is a master at defusing ticking time-bombs, although ironically, I think this might be the feistiest I've ever seen him. I'm trusting Tokes to keep an eye on him and make sure that he's not ripping raw meat apart and beating his chest, etc. Whatever. Attitudes suitably quietened, there's a huge opportunity for a bit of harmony going forward. Dare we take it?

Rage Against The Machine were the first really serious band I'd heard. I have to admit, part of the initial fascination was having an album that would shock my normally unshockable mother. It worked for a few days, but she was happily singing "F**k you I won't do what you tell me" in the kitchen thereafter. Teenage rebellion ended right there and then. Their first album pretty much lays it all on the line. The governments you know are corrupt, true advocates for change are assassinated and almost everything you've been taught is potential shít. Know your enemy. Everything on it is more relevant 20 years later.

So you spend your spare time watching people getting píssed on and thinking of me? Obsessed weirdo. Coming from me, that is fúcking saying something,

Bletch Trolls!

Cameron could have put devo max on the table back then, if he'd been stupid enough to believe that the SNP vote was all about nationalism. It isn't. The SNP happens to offer a load of free stuff that the rest of the country doesn't get. People like free stuff, particularly if it means that their offspring don't become a plaything of bankers if they want to go to University. The very canny thing about the free stuff move is that it also alienates the rest of the country. People think the Scots are taking the píss, and want them gone. Blind as well as mad there. The irony is that it's the SNP that's trying to conserve British traditions like the NHS and free higher education. Those Conservatives just don't do what they say on the tin.

It's not really a huge what-aboutery point, and anyone that has seen my input knows that I'm not exactly full of praise for Labour either. However, Labour did not bet the Union during their time in office. Seems mental that the Tories did, especially given the feeling toward them and especially because we're in the middle of a recession, when no-one feels particularly good about their governance. Madness.