pap

Ah stop it. You're making me want to watch it now. Andreas Katsulas gives the performance of his life as G'Kar. Every B5 fan I know lists him as one of their favourite characters. Londo also fascinates. Nice thing about B5 is that it'll put any of its characters front and centre, for a good few episodes if need be. Both of these guys get a lot of screen time, including some of the best moments of the series. One thing that will please you is that the effects do get better year on year.

Boris is Britain's most respected politician, according to survey. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/sep/14/boris-johnson-most-respected-politician

Wasn't this bridge supposed to have been paid for (and free thereafter) ages ago?

The first season of B5 is probably the worst of the lot, Col. If you're enjoying that then you are going to love the rest. Still my all-time favourite sci-fi show. The scope is immense.

That was an interesting read, trousers. They really haven't thought this through. I like this bit:-

Girls boobs really not a big deal.

Nice try, Alps - but you're all over the place and you know it, which is why you've signed off the way you have. You're totally wrong on Hillsborough, to the extent where it is not even worth picking you up on all of the crap you've written. That's fine. Anyone with a brain can read between the lines here. Your points on 9/11 are naive in the extreme, and I'm sorry, do represent a complete contradiction. You want to venerate those who died on 9/11 yet denigrate those who have been fighting for justice in Hillsborough. No matter what you say, a massive injustice was done to the families and by extension, the city of Liverpool. I've seen your paper-thin "it's about the numbers" argument. If that's the case, why start a thread about 9/11 when a thread on the Iraq War dead yields so many more numbers? Where do you even get the idea that the Hillsborough families have a "complete monopoly" on grief? You've spent the week in Austria. I've been sat here in Wavertree and have seen the reactions of Liverpudlians first hand. They are not grieving. That happened 23 years ago. Virtually the whole city, red and blue, covered Anfield in tribute. I know that 96 people doesn't seem like much in a city of half a million, but most people knew someone affected by the tragedy. And don't give me this "I don't have a scouse vendetta" b*llocks. I've had numerous exchanges with you and hypo on the subject, dune too. The main difference is that those two were just winding me up, where I believe that you genuinely don't like them. As for why, no f**king idea. Sort it out. You're a f**king embarrassment.

I've been all over the Union, and around Ireland too. The striking thing, once you forget about national boundaries, is the cultural similarity across the inhabitants of the two islands. The main thing that changes is the accent, although Ireland does have a lot of things that are a big deal there and nowhere else, such as Gaelic sports. Point is, I don't really see the benefits of independence for Scotland, especially if one of their first objectives is to surrender sovereignty to the EU.

One could argue that with the jubilee, the Royals are already over-exposed. But then, one could argue that Kate's jubblies are under-exposed.

Bearsy, your performance in this thread reminds me of watching a crap film with a good actor in it. The movie goes off course, gets boring, caught up in dialogue etc, etc - then the one good actor pops up, does something different - and keeps everyone interested for a bit longer. Bravo little bear! You are that respected thespian!

Telegraph article. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9541844/No-SNP-separate-Scotland-EU-plan-until-2013.html Apparently, one of Salmond's key assumptions, that Scotland would immediately be part of the EU because it has been part of Britain, is a load of crap. Miguel Barroso has stated that an independent Scotland would have to apply like any other member state. Terms probably won't be as good either - the UK has managed to secure a lot of opt-outs on stuff like the Schengen agreement because of its relative importance in the Union. Guess Scotland are starting to find out what being a 5million person country is really all about.

UN-sanctioned, definitely. Right? Arguable, especially since what they eventually did ( kill OBL in his pyjamas and drop him in the sea ) would have saved a whole lot of bother, even if they'd had to wait a few years for the opportunity to arise.

I'd agree that it is entirely disrespectful to say "3000 is nothing". The real question is whether the death of 3,000 people justifies the massive changes people say were down to 9/11. I would disagree with your definition of what the scope of this thread should be. 9/11 is not just about those who died on the day. Those events live with all of us in some shape or form, as evidenced by quite a number of posts which simply detail what Saints fans were doing on the day. Unless people actually know anyone who was killed that day, it'll be very difficult to do what you suggest - remember them.

TDD - you've completely misunderstood my point, and in fact have the complete opposite idea. Well done. A catastrophic failure better than a middling success any day of the week. My point was that we have seem to have achieved real progress on this as a consequence of all parties being aligned in their support, as opposed to the usual bun fight we see.

I'll tell you one thing. If the rest of Parliament was conducted with as much focus and probity as the two Hillsborough debates (ok, yesterday was a statement) have, this country would not be in the sh!t it is in today.

I'm not convinced that Hatton ever had any proper political convictions, judging from my experience of the bloke. If he ever was militant, he shows little of that these days. You'd have a hard time separating him from any middle-aged bloke overly concerned with outward appearance. You're dead on with the rest of your analysis though. People already had their ideas about Liverpool. It is impossible not to, really. Noisy city with a distinctive accent and a long history of protest. And as you say, portrayal in the media not exactly balanced. A point I often make, and that you've proved for me, is that outside of the area, Merseyside is synonymous with Liverpool. Merseyside is a big place and while some of the outlying areas are pretty much Liverpool overflows, there are also large parts of it that just aren't scouse at all. Southport, St. Helens, Widnes - all part of Merseyside - but definitely not Liverpool. Even large parts of the Wirral (plazzy scousers) are not scouse. Liverpool catches the headlines for anything that happens in Merseyside, which is a little unfair in my book. No one has a go at Southampton if something kicks off in Andover, or even Fareham.

Hehe. Merely making the point that heirs and graces aren't exactly universal down south either.

Guilty as charged (see how easy it is to admit?!) Seriously though, what avenues has your particular brand of generalisation left open save this? Without any context save your posts, I don't really have a lot to go on except to ponder on your reasons for your stance. The best potential hypothesis is that you're really not happy with yourself, hence the need to denigrate others so that they appear to be less than you. Now if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. However, I haven't met anyone in 37 years who was as angry as you that didn't turn out to be just angry with themselves. It can't be negative day-to-day contact with scousers. I know they get about, but you're in Austria, FFS. Is there a little scouse enclave called New Aigburth or something? It's not like you can even pull the North-South card. You're from the Flower Estates, same as me. It's not like either of us filled our childhood summers with f*cking gymkhanas or anything. So tell me, why is it that you dislike Liverpudlians so much that on the day that the city is finally, publicly vindicated over Hillsborough, you still play the self-pity card? My current guess is "not enough sit-ups".

Try sit-ups, Alps. Twin benefit of keeping you out of trouble and improving your self-esteem.

My dear trousers. Have you learned nothing from yesterday? If we're going to go the "no stone unturned" route, where does that start exactly? I know that the families had access to pretty much everything Hillsborough related, but there is such a thing as scope. I'm not sure we'd ever get a result if we tracked down each and every contributing factor at the time.

I'm not sure that the two can ever be separated. Cause and effect. One thing to remember is those that are left behind. Normally, this relates to the loved ones of those who died. 9/11 is extremely odd in that "those left behind" is pretty much all of us, and yes, we will one day need to face the fact that over a million died as a result of the 2 "retaliatory" Gulf Wars.

Sssh, Alps.

Sorry Alps. Didn't realise that you were actually expecting an answer to your first point. I don't believe that the Sun's apology is anything more than lip service. I've been more than clear on my feelings for the Sun for some time. I'm not actually sure what worries me the most about it - the moronic content that can read by a five year old, or the moronic audience who seem to lap it up in droves.

You're quite right on your last point. The number one reason for not buying The Sun is not Hillsborough. It's more to do with not being a f*cking moron. Fortunately for me, my moronic moments are few and far between, and have never descended on me when I'm about to buy a newspaper.

Thatcher was more than happy to use policemen as stormtroopers throughout the miners' strike. And people wonder why respect for authority seems to have diminished.