Alain Perrin

The way to save the forum and, ultimately, stop the fan conflict escalating into a knife fight is to have two forums. One for Saints Politics, one for Saints Football. Rigorously moderate it so that posts about the 'wrong' subject get kicked to the other forum. This is absolutely key. That way the people that want to snipe about politics can do it to their hearts content. The people that want to talk about football can do that too. I don't buy the 'you can't have one without the other argument - of course you can. Talking about the manager is fair game on a football forum but, in my mind, the board and politics should be somewhere else. I post far less on this board these days because even a post about who should play leftback degenerates into a diatribe about the reverse takeover or similar.

You can chose between: - Saintsweb forum in outrage at OS article shock. - Saintsweb forum in outrage over OS not communicating with fans. Nothing wrong with the words in my opinion, we just need some wins.

FF, the big difference is that Branfoot was the manager. It makes the cause and effect easier to determine and judgements are easier to come by. I'd also argue that the Internet helps minority (and majority) views be heard in a way that previously didn't happen. FWIW, My support (with a small 's') of Lowe is based on not thinking there are viable alternatives, rather than belief in him as an inpirational leader.

I agree with Jonah that Lowe's PR is better since his return, but the damage is done and not even Max Clifford can make that right. Fishing / Skiing makes very little difference in the grand scheme of things, only the fans that look at the directors box rather than the pitch will have noticed. Far less damaging than pronouncements about Kilingons etc. I wasn't at the AGM but, from what I've read, nobody came out of it looking good. Lowe inflamed an already tense situation by reading out the letter (ill-udged, yes - but despite what has been said on here, I would be astounded were it not genuine). Regardless, it didn't help set a mature atmosphere. Couch / LM et al followed it up with a shouting match / walkout, plus purile questions about boardroom pictures. Personally I was less inclined to support Crouch after what I read about the AGM, than before - prior to that I considered him to be viable (admittedly not my preferred) alternative, if a bit of a loose cannon.

The police can't win though, can they. If it kicked of like the last time in Bristol then they'd be criticised for not policing enough. If you want someone to blame, blame the muppets that caused the trouble last time.

Moyes is an interesting manager. Everton seem to repeatedly have a great (flirting with CL football season) followed by a poor (flirting with relegation) season. Always good for a spreadbet.

What a pile of twonk. Everyone wants the club to do well, they just differ in the ways they think this can be achieved. Crowing about the demise of our great club because it proves you right? Yeah, well done - you're sooo clevva! My opinion is that we are deep in the financial do-do and that any action taken to reduce the wage bill had to be radical. The BIG question is not whether it had to be as radical as it was (i.e. did we have to play youth as much as we did, or was a better blend possible - how much was a desire by Lowe to make his 'experiment' work, how much was financial necessity). Was Lowe trying to solve the financial problem too quickly? It would be interesting to know what the monthly wage bill is now vs. last season. That would be the true measure of what was possible. My guess is because Skacel/Euell are still on the books, not as low as was desired (from a business / balancing the books point of view). Fact is that it is in no-one's interest to be relegated - certainly not Lowe's. My guess is that he would see it as preferable to administration, but the one probably makes the other almost inevitable (it depends on how savage the cost cutting has been / can be).

I suspect penalties may account for your missing goals. Biggest problem is not the NUMBER of shots, but the QUALITY. Too often McGoldrick's end product is a trickling scuff my gran could save (and she's been dead for 28 years)

Excellent wiki-ing Um, and thanks for calling me a *****. You cannot deny that you've been a vocal critic of most things Lowe has done. May be not agitating, but certainly front and centre, colours clearly nailed to the mast and, I would argue, less rational for it. Speaking of which, my interpretation of luck is not in the Irish leprechaun sense, it is also rational. I do recognise that a series of events led to our relegation, some of Lowe's making, some of others. But I always think that but for a Higgy own goal or a "harder to miss" goal scoring opportunity we might not have found ourselves relegated and in the financial poop shoot. However, if you win enough games through sweat and talent, 'luck' is an irrelevance. And ultimately Lowe, the players and, my argument above, the fans too have a responsibility of varying degrees for why that didn't happen then, and isn't happening now. For me it just isn't black or white.

I'm glad you recognise an over reaction, perhaps I was wrong, maybe you are more of a Richard Reid than a Osama Bin Laden You can't seriously say that you believe: - Luck has had NOTHING to do with our situation? - Fan support has nothing to do with results? ... or do you bomber boy?

I've no doubt you did Um, but you've also been front and centre of the off pitch agitation through this board. You're like a mullah inciting suicide bombers. And part of it is fanaticism. Seeing only one side of the story, picking the pieces out of a post and using it to support your jihad. For example above, someone made a comment about luck having a part to play. Ok they may have over egged the role, but clearly luck has had a part to play. But to accept that luck has had a part to play doesn't fit into the mantra that Lowe is all evil. I'm not asking for people not to blame Lowe, clearly he is culpable, very culpable. I just think we ought to accept there are other factors at play too, fan negativity and luck are both in that long list.

Are you seriously saying that you haven't read my post, or subsequent posts? Of course it has got something (a lot to do with Lowe, Wilde, Jan, Wotte, the players and [insert many other names here]). I said ONE of MANY. Compare our club with say Man City when they went down, superficially at least they maintained an appearance of unity. We've spent the entire time bickering, from the terrace to the boardroom. Agree the support at home and away this year has been great, but there is, and has been, an undercurrent of discontent ever present since the back-end of our relegation season. For many fans it probably makes no difference, they just want the team to win - but some were waiting for it to fail to say "I told you so" or the old favourite "Lowe out". My point is that the blame culture doesn't help anyone. Are you seriously saying that support matters for nothing? If so, why bother going?

I haven't accepted relegation yet, shame on you if you have. There's a fine balance between being realistic and being defeatist, and I think a lot on this board have the balance wrong. Yes I think the fan's divisions / obsession with the board are one of MANY causes of our current plight. Let me give you an example. When all the fans eyes are on the Northam because a fight is breaking out / a banner is being unfurled / a sit down/standing up incident, or eyes are focused on a plane flying above with a fluttering message behind it, are they focused on the game? No. What if just one of the players gets distracted by that for a second or two? Just a quick glance, here or there - rather than 100% focus. I can't believe they don't notice what's going on and that that doesn't have at least a small impact. The fans rejected Hoddle, helped bring Wilde to power the first time round - all things which have helped cause our current situation. Lowe has driven the car into the ditch, a large percentage down to his driving, but part (only part) of the reason was that he was swerving to avoid roadblocks we erected.

Sorry, looked but didn't see that. Thanks.

Anyone know if I can just rock up and get a ticket at Ashton Gate?

In-fighting amongst the fans is one of many causes of it. IMHO a large number of our fans have forgotten we support the same team.

Agreed. It is a pity term limits won't work in our party system. Kind of like why 4-4-2 doesn't work with our players (notice my desperate attempt to keep this on topic:) )

Can't disagree that Maggie did a lot of good and necessary medicine was taken. They also left public services to rot, had consistently high unemployment and homelessness and had their own fair share of sleaze. I'd agree red tape has a lot to answer for, but I'd argue that's a global trend, rather than a red or blue thing. The war is an interesting one, Blair was damned if he did, damned if he didn't, in my opinion (I can't see the Daily Mail supporting pacifism if ultimately an Iraqi originating chemical weapon was lit off in Central London). As it was he took a wrong call, but he, like Lowe, gets paid to make decisions and has to live with the consequences. Take Lowe for example. Delivered stadium and a cup final (bull**** caveats aside he did achieve this), got us relegated and facing admin. Which will people remember?

Give me Labour over the Tories any day, each side has it's wrong 'uns and, at the end of the day, you have to hope that the 'good' 'uns do some things that you agree with. Truth is many of the policies are the same these days, you're just looking at a different face delivering it. Politics is just what we have on this board everyday. Blind politics, where one side is always whiter than white, and the other is evil. We have the Loony Left like Scooby and the Raving Right like Alpine (or Neo-facists like Stanley). To be honest I fear for Saints unless people can remember to support what's on the pitch, and forget what/who is in the Boardroom. Like politics, it generally makes feck all difference.

And here lies the fundamental problem with Saint's fans. Arguing about an impossible to prove point, again and again (and again, oh and again). There is no Pearson - the truth, only Pearson - opinion & conjecture. Fact is that Lowe (the one who had to make a decision without hindsight) didn't think Pearson was the person to deliver on our meagre budget with a bunch of reserves/youth. Pearson may have been a good manager for us, he may have done better than JP/Wotte - but no one knows. All the parameters (players, opposition, morale, luck) are different. Arguing about it isn't going to change anyones mind, or change the results we have on the board. If we focused on the future, not the past then perhaps we'd stand a better chance of getting out of the mess we are undoubtedly in. ... right I'm off to post something about the Reverse Takeover.

Stop all this rogan joshing, it is not as if we aren't in enough chicken chat already.

Exactly my point. There are many reasons why the fans are staying away, RL is the cause of several (both indirectly and directly). That said I think if we were in the same league position with Crouch and Pearson, the net position would be little different. My opinion is that (at a push) 500 stay away because of Lowe (many more use it as a convenient reason in the face of a team that's not winning, no money or other commitments).

Or as it would have been reported on SaintsWeb.... "POLICE are investigating claims that two Saints players were involved in a street brawl with a fan in Southampton. The Daily Echo can today reveal that useless strikers David McGoldrick and accused bag snatcher Bradley Wright-Phillips are at the centre of the inquiry. The obscenely highly-paid pair were allegedly involved in an incident outside Wetherspoon’s The Giddy Bridge pub, in London Road, in the early hours of Saturday. This despite a clause in their contract preventing them from going out anywhere. The probe was launched after a 21-year-old man claimed he had been assaulted as he was making his way home from the library where he had been reading up on caring for fluffy white kittens. It is understood that he alleged that he was left covered in take-away food and nursing grazes and bruising following the incident. "They hit me at Hello", said the man whose wooden leg was also scratched in the incident. The alleged assault was reported to police and the fan is due to make a further statement on Wednesday. Hampshire police last night confirmed an investigation had been launched.

Over estimate in my opinion. Rupes will point to Saints vs Man Utd as an example of the fans staying away for reasons other than his presence.

I have sympathies with Lowe, but he is far from a unifying figure. It was clear that, when he returned, that some fans would stay away. These are the same fans that refused to go to the cup final when he was in charge and I salute them for their consistency. But enough stirring. This is, yet again, being seen as a black and white issue. Setting aside the statistical inaccuracies caused by comparing full season(s) - two of which received end of season boosts by a playoff/relegation battle) - with a partial one, there are many reasons why our numbers are lower. 1) We're losing fairweather fans the longer we're down. 2) We're losing kids who'd rather go and see premiership. 3) Flies round ****, Fans round wins. 4) Different mix of gold / silver / bronze home games so far this season. 5) Appalling home form = why bother 6) Credit crunch 7) Youth players, no star names Rupert Lowe is convenient to blame and, rightly argued, a cause of some of those factors. If we believe the money situation is as bad as reported, the only thing that Crouch / Pearson would have been able to influence would be (5). I think Pearsons more blood and guts approach would have got more points at home, but no one can say for certain. If Crouch / Pearson / Rasiak were still here AND we were still in the same league position, the numbers would be broadly similar (less the Lowe stayaways who count for around 500 in my opinion). (note the use of 'in my opinion', it's far more accurate than declaring FACT!)