Alain Perrin

Excellent wiki-ing Um, and thanks for calling me a *****. You cannot deny that you've been a vocal critic of most things Lowe has done. May be not agitating, but certainly front and centre, colours clearly nailed to the mast and, I would argue, less rational for it. Speaking of which, my interpretation of luck is not in the Irish leprechaun sense, it is also rational. I do recognise that a series of events led to our relegation, some of Lowe's making, some of others. But I always think that but for a Higgy own goal or a "harder to miss" goal scoring opportunity we might not have found ourselves relegated and in the financial poop shoot. However, if you win enough games through sweat and talent, 'luck' is an irrelevance. And ultimately Lowe, the players and, my argument above, the fans too have a responsibility of varying degrees for why that didn't happen then, and isn't happening now. For me it just isn't black or white.

I'm glad you recognise an over reaction, perhaps I was wrong, maybe you are more of a Richard Reid than a Osama Bin Laden You can't seriously say that you believe: - Luck has had NOTHING to do with our situation? - Fan support has nothing to do with results? ... or do you bomber boy?

I've no doubt you did Um, but you've also been front and centre of the off pitch agitation through this board. You're like a mullah inciting suicide bombers. And part of it is fanaticism. Seeing only one side of the story, picking the pieces out of a post and using it to support your jihad. For example above, someone made a comment about luck having a part to play. Ok they may have over egged the role, but clearly luck has had a part to play. But to accept that luck has had a part to play doesn't fit into the mantra that Lowe is all evil. I'm not asking for people not to blame Lowe, clearly he is culpable, very culpable. I just think we ought to accept there are other factors at play too, fan negativity and luck are both in that long list.

Are you seriously saying that you haven't read my post, or subsequent posts? Of course it has got something (a lot to do with Lowe, Wilde, Jan, Wotte, the players and [insert many other names here]). I said ONE of MANY. Compare our club with say Man City when they went down, superficially at least they maintained an appearance of unity. We've spent the entire time bickering, from the terrace to the boardroom. Agree the support at home and away this year has been great, but there is, and has been, an undercurrent of discontent ever present since the back-end of our relegation season. For many fans it probably makes no difference, they just want the team to win - but some were waiting for it to fail to say "I told you so" or the old favourite "Lowe out". My point is that the blame culture doesn't help anyone. Are you seriously saying that support matters for nothing? If so, why bother going?

I haven't accepted relegation yet, shame on you if you have. There's a fine balance between being realistic and being defeatist, and I think a lot on this board have the balance wrong. Yes I think the fan's divisions / obsession with the board are one of MANY causes of our current plight. Let me give you an example. When all the fans eyes are on the Northam because a fight is breaking out / a banner is being unfurled / a sit down/standing up incident, or eyes are focused on a plane flying above with a fluttering message behind it, are they focused on the game? No. What if just one of the players gets distracted by that for a second or two? Just a quick glance, here or there - rather than 100% focus. I can't believe they don't notice what's going on and that that doesn't have at least a small impact. The fans rejected Hoddle, helped bring Wilde to power the first time round - all things which have helped cause our current situation. Lowe has driven the car into the ditch, a large percentage down to his driving, but part (only part) of the reason was that he was swerving to avoid roadblocks we erected.

Sorry, looked but didn't see that. Thanks.

Anyone know if I can just rock up and get a ticket at Ashton Gate?

In-fighting amongst the fans is one of many causes of it. IMHO a large number of our fans have forgotten we support the same team.

Agreed. It is a pity term limits won't work in our party system. Kind of like why 4-4-2 doesn't work with our players (notice my desperate attempt to keep this on topic:) )

Can't disagree that Maggie did a lot of good and necessary medicine was taken. They also left public services to rot, had consistently high unemployment and homelessness and had their own fair share of sleaze. I'd agree red tape has a lot to answer for, but I'd argue that's a global trend, rather than a red or blue thing. The war is an interesting one, Blair was damned if he did, damned if he didn't, in my opinion (I can't see the Daily Mail supporting pacifism if ultimately an Iraqi originating chemical weapon was lit off in Central London). As it was he took a wrong call, but he, like Lowe, gets paid to make decisions and has to live with the consequences. Take Lowe for example. Delivered stadium and a cup final (bull**** caveats aside he did achieve this), got us relegated and facing admin. Which will people remember?

Give me Labour over the Tories any day, each side has it's wrong 'uns and, at the end of the day, you have to hope that the 'good' 'uns do some things that you agree with. Truth is many of the policies are the same these days, you're just looking at a different face delivering it. Politics is just what we have on this board everyday. Blind politics, where one side is always whiter than white, and the other is evil. We have the Loony Left like Scooby and the Raving Right like Alpine (or Neo-facists like Stanley). To be honest I fear for Saints unless people can remember to support what's on the pitch, and forget what/who is in the Boardroom. Like politics, it generally makes feck all difference.

And here lies the fundamental problem with Saint's fans. Arguing about an impossible to prove point, again and again (and again, oh and again). There is no Pearson - the truth, only Pearson - opinion & conjecture. Fact is that Lowe (the one who had to make a decision without hindsight) didn't think Pearson was the person to deliver on our meagre budget with a bunch of reserves/youth. Pearson may have been a good manager for us, he may have done better than JP/Wotte - but no one knows. All the parameters (players, opposition, morale, luck) are different. Arguing about it isn't going to change anyones mind, or change the results we have on the board. If we focused on the future, not the past then perhaps we'd stand a better chance of getting out of the mess we are undoubtedly in. ... right I'm off to post something about the Reverse Takeover.

Stop all this rogan joshing, it is not as if we aren't in enough chicken chat already.

Exactly my point. There are many reasons why the fans are staying away, RL is the cause of several (both indirectly and directly). That said I think if we were in the same league position with Crouch and Pearson, the net position would be little different. My opinion is that (at a push) 500 stay away because of Lowe (many more use it as a convenient reason in the face of a team that's not winning, no money or other commitments).

Or as it would have been reported on SaintsWeb.... "POLICE are investigating claims that two Saints players were involved in a street brawl with a fan in Southampton. The Daily Echo can today reveal that useless strikers David McGoldrick and accused bag snatcher Bradley Wright-Phillips are at the centre of the inquiry. The obscenely highly-paid pair were allegedly involved in an incident outside Wetherspoon’s The Giddy Bridge pub, in London Road, in the early hours of Saturday. This despite a clause in their contract preventing them from going out anywhere. The probe was launched after a 21-year-old man claimed he had been assaulted as he was making his way home from the library where he had been reading up on caring for fluffy white kittens. It is understood that he alleged that he was left covered in take-away food and nursing grazes and bruising following the incident. "They hit me at Hello", said the man whose wooden leg was also scratched in the incident. The alleged assault was reported to police and the fan is due to make a further statement on Wednesday. Hampshire police last night confirmed an investigation had been launched.

Over estimate in my opinion. Rupes will point to Saints vs Man Utd as an example of the fans staying away for reasons other than his presence.

I have sympathies with Lowe, but he is far from a unifying figure. It was clear that, when he returned, that some fans would stay away. These are the same fans that refused to go to the cup final when he was in charge and I salute them for their consistency. But enough stirring. This is, yet again, being seen as a black and white issue. Setting aside the statistical inaccuracies caused by comparing full season(s) - two of which received end of season boosts by a playoff/relegation battle) - with a partial one, there are many reasons why our numbers are lower. 1) We're losing fairweather fans the longer we're down. 2) We're losing kids who'd rather go and see premiership. 3) Flies round ****, Fans round wins. 4) Different mix of gold / silver / bronze home games so far this season. 5) Appalling home form = why bother 6) Credit crunch 7) Youth players, no star names Rupert Lowe is convenient to blame and, rightly argued, a cause of some of those factors. If we believe the money situation is as bad as reported, the only thing that Crouch / Pearson would have been able to influence would be (5). I think Pearsons more blood and guts approach would have got more points at home, but no one can say for certain. If Crouch / Pearson / Rasiak were still here AND we were still in the same league position, the numbers would be broadly similar (less the Lowe stayaways who count for around 500 in my opinion). (note the use of 'in my opinion', it's far more accurate than declaring FACT!)

Ermmm really? Not everyone lives down the road. I didn't go because of snow, so there's at least some truth in what he says.

I stand corrected (For info the Urethea spelling was, quite literally, taking the p***)

I love the way posters reports mischief such as this. It's always some 'butter wouldn't melt' innocent bystander who said " I say Mr Wright-Phillips, do you mind awfully if I appraise you of your recent performances." More often than not it's some snotty little oik, who demands respect yet gives nothing back. Urethra Franklin has a lot to answer for in my opinion

One of the most telling paragraphs.

it's not that kind of forum though.....

To be honest this post makes me look a bit of a ****. We should be thankful that our 'asset' players are still here. Anyways, apologies for the baiting. I'm not a fan of that and feel a bit ashamed (I can only blame it on lack of sleep and the discovery of free wifi in the departure lounge )

Ron, I am. Not proud exactly, because clearly things could have gone better. That said the fact that we are not cut loose whilst playing effectively a reserve/youth team is a testament to the guts of the players we have. I didn't expect playoffs this year, I expected to survive whilst the financial holes were plugged. We're not relegated yet, and with luck we'll survive by the skin of our teeth which is what happened last year (with a vastly more experienced, skilled and payed side).

Is Surman any good? Just interested in hearing what Saint's fans think of Surman now that he has signed for us...... oh, what's that you say? Surman and Lallana are still here? Surely not?