trousers

What sort of warped logic is that Farmery? Surely you try harder to escape relegation if you're starting with a psychological -10, not try less because of it? I've heard it all now...

Wigan lose West Ham draw

Surely any team losing within catching distance of us is a good result? They call it risk mitigation in business circles...

Chelsea 3rd - Brings Fulham's goal difference down to same as ours

Come on Man Ure!

Yes! Tevez!!

Wigan hit the bar! (but offside anyway)

Utd equalise

Now City go close

Wigan go close again

I can't see Wigan losing this

Wigan all over City at the moment

Ffs Utd

Anyone got a karaoke machine? That needs to be recorded and uploaded to YouTube pronto! Genius

Yay...2nd for Chelsea

Chelsea score

Wigan free kick in dangerous position edit: straight to Hart

Jeeez.....Man City very close there

That's better

Great

But my problem is, how do I decide whether you're right or whether pap is right? Or maybe you're both right depending on how the situation is interpreted? This is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. Is this a matter of opinion or unquestionable fact?

Ok, thanks - that looks like a good starting point. All I need now are the transcripts from the time that Thatcher ordered the closure of the mines so I can see why she thought otherwise.

Of course not. As long as your opinion is based on researched fact rather than jumping on a bandwagon. I've no idea how terrible the Mayans were (or were not) ergo I can't comment on them. I guess what some people are suggesting is that some young people aren't basing their opinion on researched facts but are simply echoing the opinion that makes them fit in with their peers.

Pap - genuine question - when you say that with such certainty, are you making a personal judgement based on what you re read/seen/heard etc or is this something that Thatcher explicitly admitted doing later in life? I don't doubt for one moment that ONE of Thatcher's primary motivations was to 'smash the unions' but what is the actual evidence that shows that she needed to close economically viable mines to meet that end? What I'd really like to do is a case study on one of the mines in question and trace it from the date it opened through to the date of closure, analysing the financial accounts throughout that period. I think people on both sides of the debate trot out their largely anecdotal evidence to back up their views but I'd really like to fine tooth comb one example to illustrate the point you make. If it could be proved that Thatcher closed down a mine SOLELY to inflict damage on a union (i.e. it wasn't part of a package of reasons on a case by case basis) then I'd be open to changing my view of Thatcher in this area. Are there any archives I can trawl through that would give me the independent info I'm after?