The Kraken

Not really that worrying then! TBF I knew he'd gotten injured but thought he was back training by now.

A bit worrying not to see Barnard anywhere near the team yet; would have thought this was an ideal chance for a run out. Injury perhaps worse than thought.

It already has several tons of sh!t flood through it's gates every other week.

Which is an excellent way for him to gradually get introduced to top-level Premier League and (potentially) Champions League group games. Although I disagree that he'll only play a handful of games, I think it will be more than that. There are plenty of parallels with AOC and Theo, though AOC played more games for Saints than Theo did (in fact almost twice as many). In Theo's first full season following his transfer he played 30-odd games for Arsenal's first team, many of them as a substitute admittedly, but still an ideal way to introduce a young player to top level football. So, despite all the whingeing going on here, you have to ask yourself: what is the best way to nurture a young player and get him used to a new playing style, a new set of team-mates, and a massive step-up in level from effectively League 1 to top of the Premier League and Europe? is it: Play 40 odd games in a league one level below the league your current side plays in. or Play 30 odd games (some starting, some as a sub) among your new team-mates in the Premier League and Europe, surrounded by international players every day in training, coached by a manager and team who have one of the best histories of bringing through young talent to the top level in recent times. I know which one I'd choose.

You can add Wayne Bridge to the list.

Our OS also says its "one of the biggest deals in Championship history". So who went for more than £12M from the Championship?

Precisely. Same with Wayne Bridge leaving; Lowe resisted for as long as he could by rebuffing offers, then Bridge put in a transfer request. So Lowe then made sure we got a good price for Bridge, and also a good replacement in Le Saux. There's plenty of things to knock Lowe for; his sales policy and record is not one of them.

I think he has an enormous amount of new twitter followers who do think exactly that, yes!

I'm sure they are, yes. Again, all part of the learning process playing for a side at the top end of the Premier League and in the Champions League.

This is a ridiculous argument anyway. The accusation is that Walcott's progress was "stalled" because he went to Arsenal too early, and therefore missed out on playing in enough competitive first team matches. Which is actually nonsense, given here's the number of appearances he actually made: 2005/06 (Saints): 23 2006/07 (Arsenal): 32 2007/08: 39 2008/09: 35 2009/10: 30 2010/11: 38

Account was only created today, so looks like its a fake. If you've just signed for Arsenal, why would you put up a profile pic of yourself in a Saints kit?

Not necessarily. In itself it's probably a fair value of his current and future worth, with the market the way it is right now. Arsenal fans are rightly up in arms because it's not the signing they need right now. They clearly have problems at CB and maybe also if Fabregas and Nasri go. Using up to £12M for a non-essential signing while neglecting other key areas that need addressing is what they're getting their knickers in a twist about.

Gordon Simpson has re-tweeted: Someone else called arsenaljeff on GS's twitter followers has posted:

Are there those that criticise Lowe for selling players? I always thought one of the things he was extremely good at was getting a good price for our players. And we'll always be a selling club. If Man Utd and Arsenal can't even keep hold of their prized assets, it's not really a bad thing.

I think we agree on that point! I just don't agree with the notion that young players can only learn from playing first team games. Of course it helps, but at that age in particular they also need lots of coaching, and a more gentle introduction to first team games so they're not playing week in week out. That can (and previously has) led to player burn-out, and it's why many top managers are so sensitive and aware of the need not to rush young players. You say it's fair to say that Theo and Bale could have benefitted from more first team football. I assume you mean with us. Yes, they could well have played more games with us (although lets be clear here, it's not as if they didn't get a look in at Arsenal and Spurs, they still played a fair amount of games for them). But you have to offset that with the fact they are making a massive step-up in levels from Championship to top-level premier League. You also have to offset that with how much Walcott learned about playing right-wing while training alongside Thierry Henry compared to staying with us and instead learning from the likes of Jhon Viafara. That's the intangible things that you don't see but which very much make a difference to the development and improvement of a young player.

I think what you've done there is highlight what "stalling" actually is. Torres is already a proven top level striker, at international and club level. He's proved that over a number of seasons. What he is doing now is having a lull in performances; he's not getting any better, in fact he's struggling to find his previous form at virtually the same level of football. What Bale and Walcott had to do when moving clubs was completely different. They had to massively improve their games so that they were capable of playing consistently for one of the best sides in the country. As I've previously stated a few times, a lot of the time that just doesn't happen straight away, it takes some time for young players to keep developing so that they can become that player. Just because after a player signs for a large club and he doesn't immediately start every single game, it doesn't mean he's stalled. At 16, 17, even 18 or 19, he is still very much learning the game and improving every day from working with top coaches and top international players.

You mean in the same way the ref did with Brighton when they came to visit? And that was pretty much the extent of it, it made little or no difference.

Exactly my point, and well put.

If he had been sold for £3M you might have a point. He wasn't sold. He didn't even go out on loan. So it's irrelevant what offer came in for him. As I said above, bale struggled to get to grips with Tottenham at first. But again, he was stepping up from one season at Championship level to one of the best teams in the country. Spurs paid £5M up front, with another £5M based on appearances. That, to me, suggests that they saw him a a player for the future. which means a lot of coaching and not expecting him to play 38 fantastic league games every season from the get-go. Are you suggesting he learnt nothing at all in his first year or two with Spurs and then just suddenly remembered how to play football? Because that would be stalling, in my view.

Seen it. See post #902 for why I disagree.

You're saying as fact what is only your opinion. But to say they stalled just isn't the case as far as I'm concerned. They bided their time, Bale struggled at first more than Theo, but to say they stalled is just wrong IMO. You're judging them on performances in the Championship (for a team that finished no higher than 6th) compared to how they got on for teams in the higher reaches of the Premier League. A huge step up in class. Just because they weren't regulars straight away, I simply do not agree that they didn't learn something every day in training in order to improve their overall games to the levels they are at today. Their career now is testament to the work they did on the training ground as well as on the pitch for a long time; they gradually improved from when we sold them. And I never said they didn't get games, did I? What I did say is that the majority of teenagers at 16 and 17 are not physically or mentally prepared to come into one of the best Premier League teams and churn out top performances week after week after week. They are often served better by having more limited game time, as they are more likely to have ups and downs in performance levels. Its part of the learning process to come in and out of the team.

I think I agree with you, it really did slow the game right down. I think the referee was partly at fault though, he made no effort to speed up the play. There were a few instances where KD seemed to have the ball in his hands for about ten seconds or so before he did his customary roll out and whack it, or drop-kick. The ref just let him get on with it, but would have been well within his rights to call him up on it at least once or twice.

You don't necessarily need 40 odd first team games to progress. Particularly in the cases Bale and Walcott, they were still very young. Had they been through Arsenal's or tottenham's youth teams from 12, for instance, they perhaps still wouldn't have broken through until when they did. Purely because young talent has to be nurtured through at the highest level.. Not every player is like Wayne Rooney and capable of putting in consistently top performances at the highest level from 16 or 17 years of age. yes, they both looked very good at championship level, but stepping up to Arsenal or Tottenham is huge. Development comes from games, yes, but mostly from coaching. Having a top coach like Wenger and being surrounded every day by top class, international players, will have a massive impact on a young player still learning the game. Playing every week (especially at a lower league level) really isn't the be all and end all.

Fair enough. I don't agree though, especially if you're saying he's at the same ability now as he was when with us.

If you think that Theo's career stalled by going there then you must be mad. He instantly got called up for the full England side, and went to a world cup. He's since gone on to become a player that has scared the life out of the best footballing club-side there has perhaps ever been, earning massive plaudits from their manager and players. He's also scored a hat-trick at international level and produced a number of excellent league and Champions League performances. But yes, his career has stalled since he left us.