Saintandy666

At the game. Bart is moving oddly. Is he carrying an injury as well?!

I obviously meant the top table within Europe (Europe as a whole is still reasonably influential, but that's not really the point). Cameron has left us totally isolated now. We are an irrelevance tonight.

We're no longer at the top table.

I know it's not about being a world power. I'm not obsessed with being such, just a lot of people still seem to have the attitude of the 19th century when we were a world power. We have to learn we can no longer do it alone, and is where what is best for our economic prosperity comes in.

I'm just saying it's about time we realised we aren't a world power any more and the only way we can have influence is as a regional power to influence a larger group. It's a 50 year process and we just have to accept that. Only countries like the US and China can do their own thing and get away with it because they have the financial muscle.

Damn right, time we stopped blaming the EU for our own failures and owned up to and realised our errors and our decline.

Probably, though I guess that depends on the campaigns. Yes to AV was ahead until the campaign and the the money got behind no to AV and the public changed their mind. We'll see. But at some point there should be a referendum now. I think Cameron's decision today(unless a future compromise is reached) makes that not only inevitable, but necessary.

I hope so. This current arrangement is just not that workable if Cameron really wants to stay in the EU which he does or at least he says he does.

For sure, I think there should be a referendum at some point, once this crisis is over. No point being half in half out, we need to decide for sure where we stand. I'll passionately campaign for a yes vote, and hopefully we'll win. But I think it needs to happen by 2015. Or whenever this economic crisis ends.

He's weak because he built no alliances and has ended up with us being a total irrelevance in Europe and so the world stage. We're nothing now. He didn't even try to get involved. Instead he just caved into his back benchers for a bit of short term popularity. We aren't a power anymore, the only way we can be is to become a regional power within Europe but Cameron doesn't want that.

26 other countries seemed to think it was alright! Either way, by being so aggressive in our tone, we've lost influence and are now isolated and we slide towards irrelevance. Even if that tone does appease Tory backbenchers, it isn't in the UK's interest to be isolated.

Been to both and know people of both nationalities. All very friendly and welcoming and really not too dissimilar to us. Love both countries.

I regularly disagree withy Dad and my mum isn't so opinionated so I'm not copying my parents. And it's not a rebel thing either because I agree on some things, disagree on others, but life goes on.

Thanks for the back up duney

If we want to trade with the EU on the same terms, we will have to follow most of the rules of the EU. If we are excluded, what happens is we lose our influence over those rules. We are not a powerful country anymore. At the centre of Europe we could be, just like Germany and France.

The only way for the UK to be a power is at the centre of Europe. Today marks another step on the road towards irrelevance.

Oh shush, just because I am a bit left wing, doesn't mean I don't love living in this country.

Isolation will be great. NOT.

Brilliant. So now, we remain in the EU, but because of Cameron's gung-ho attitude and his giving in to his backbenchers to take an awful aggressive stance, everyone in Europe probably hates us more. We've lost our influence. Cameron had a chance to shape and change how Europe will look like in the next generation, but instead caved in under pressure. Weak weak weak.

I didn't mean it in that literal sense. Surely you realised when I said we I meant the consequences for all of us will be bad, not that that was everyone's opinion?!?!

Yes, yes I do.

Would be interesting to see opinion polls on a federal Europe and what Merkel is suggesting at the moment and also just the EU in general. I'd imagine they'd get steadily more popular as the 3 positions I mentioned were moved through.

Well, no... because this is only a debate subforum on a football forum. I don't think you should have to be overly experienced in anything before giving an opinion on it? It's only a debate forum. However, if that is your opinion which it seems to be, then maybe you should just stop contributing at all to fall in line with that! Bit silly really.

Fair point well made. It probably depends on how much support it has in those states and while mainland Europe is very pro-EU, I don't have a clue how they'd react to a REAL federal Europe, beyond even what Merkel is proposing which isn't a federal Europe, just much closer integration. Events over the next couple of decades could change opinions vastly of course. I do think the EU has made us speak to each other in a way we never did before. The key is a referendum so that the people can have their say. On a separate issue, I do think people in general are far too black and white/narrow minded on these issues. There is rarely ever one absolutely correct solution with all the rest being totally crap.

Well, many economists would agree with me also. Economists never agree. Why don't we just get some on here and let them argue rather than us because they are the only ones with the relevant experience? Or we can just drop the you don't know what your talking about card, because quite frankly neither of us have studied the economy in enough depth and so just rely on a few simplified figures and others opinions. Sounds good to me.