CHAPEL END CHARLIE

Top Post and I'm more than happy to accept all of the above , although the likes of Ashley Cole being associated with the term 'going rate' does raise an eyebrow .

Thanks for that thoughtful reply David , I don't want us to fall out because A - you have interesting things to say and B - I've enough critics already ! When you mention the love of money being the root of all evil you've gone right to the heart of it and that must surely strike a cord with many on here as it does with me . It has become commonplace to see Premier League players taking vast amounts of money out of the game now , sums quite beyond what they could ever possibly need or spend even and it hardly raises a comment anymore . If this is not the prime example of the 'love of money' in modern society I don't know what is to be frank . Markus Liebherr may well have to swim in these murky moral waters one day and I'd be surprised if as a man of faith he implications don't trouble him to some degree . How he resolves that problem is of course a matter for him and his faith . What is morally 'wrong' with a Christian businessman paying footballers £50k or a £100k a week ? It's a hard question to answer , there are many perfectly valid arguments available to say that this is the result of market forces at work or that players deserve to share in the wealth their talent generates and I can't summon a decent argument against any of that , but still it strikes me as fundamentally wrong somehow that players take home a fortune every week when the grim reality of absolute poverty overwhelms our poor suffering world so . The wealth of men is limited not infinite , for a footballer to have so much means that somebody else must have much less . I know many will vehemently disagree with me and I'll take all their criticism without complaint , what I'm saying here isn't based on logic or the financial realities of the real world , I'm not even a Christian really although I do admire much of the Bible's teachings . All I ask is that people accept that how I feel about this matter comes straight from the heart , paying top players (or bankers/stockbrokers ...etc ) what we do now is wrong , and as we're discussing the Christian religion lets employ the correct term for that - it's a sin .

I seem to be in your 'bad books this morning for some reason :confused: - My original point was merely to wonder how will Mr Liebherr reconcile his faith with the possibility of having to pay players vast sums of money one day - I'm was not attacking ML at all (far from it , I hold him in high regard actually) - I was only putting that point up for debate as it seemed a tad more interesting than arguing about dry statistics or any of the other rubbish we waste our time on here . No need for the aggression fella .

Good stuff LTC and very true , but it's also true that the opposition are not just hapless victims of our ambitions - they have their own dreams and plans , indeed they may well take issue with us regarding them as mere 'Lesser teams' in the first place . As you have pointed out the bigger better resourced team doesn't always win in football (far from it) this is why in practical terms maintaining a rather better than 2 points per game average over a long period is so difficult to achieve in practice . It can be done but only by ruthlessly efficient and consistent sides at the very height of their powers , can we honestly say we fit that description yet ? Fear is indeed the enemy - but what happens when two well matched teams that have both managed to conqueror that final enemy meet ?

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Always happy to oblige Nick , the memory of your tireless and enthusiastic support of Poortvliet's and Lowe's 'Total Football' experiment last season has always served as a reliable source of amusement on many a dull autumn night too . ...how exactly did that turn out by the way ?

Thanks for that St Chalet . 74 points over just 34 remaining games means a scoring rate of more than 2 points per game on average will be required from now on . If anyone on here really believes that we're going to rampage our way through the fixture list like some unstoppable red and white striped Panzer Division then I'll have some of what they're drinking . .... it would be nice though .

True , but the OP seems to be extolling the benefits of unending stability when the record shows that their first action was to unseat an incumbent manager . I think NC was right to replace Wotte for what it's worth .

What are you talking about :confused: The irony that one of Nicola Cortese's very first actions upon arrival at St Marys was to dismiss our de facto manager (Mark Wotte whatever his exact contract status) seems to have escaped you entirely .

It seems to me the way Simon Gillett has been handled has been in error . Some players respond to being dropped by their manager with a 'I'll show him' attitude and come back stronger , while others need more of a 'arm around the shoulder' approach to achieve their full potential . Surely the test of good man management is to know the difference between these two distinct types - to put it crudely who responds best to the stick - and who to the carrot . It appears likely that Gillett falls into the latter category but unsympathetic treatment from his manager and/or coaches (who don't rate him it seems) has had a negative impact on both his confidence and his game . One of our better players last season , a player who easily kept Schneiderlin out of the side and who surely has much more to offer us in midfield than Paul Wotton for instance could/should be a asset for this club , but instead he has become a liability somehow - what a pity .

If you are referring to me then I don't see any 'arrogant' or 'rude' contribution that I've made to this thread although others can make up their own minds on that . I do however intensely dislike the record being selectively manipulated to suite an argument . I find that both misleading and worthy of criticism . You been on here long enough to know that you're not always (or ever) going to get unanimous agreement on here when you put forward a contentious point of view - that is in the very nature of debate . You Sir would do well to post a little less like a paid SFC cheer leader and a little more like an objective seeker of the truth sometimes .

Fascinating post St Jack you're a gentleman and a scholar Sir . I see nothing fundamentally inconsistent with Christianity in sport or business per se (as long as both are conducted in a ethical manner) indeed both can be seen as serving a greater good in that business/providing employment is essential to the Human condition and sport enriches so many lives . As you say how Mr Liebherr reconciles his wealth with his faith is a matter for his conscience in the final analysis , perhaps he'll tell us one day .

Footballers work in mysterious ways - their wonders to perform .

It's not so much what he earns but rather how he spends it that counts from a religious perspective I'd say .

I think it's an interesting paradox how people with a strong Christian faith can square that belief with the implications of becoming extremely wealthy and indeed owning a (one day hopefully) Premier League Football Club . I hasten to add that I'm not at all religious myself and I've no intention of preaching to anybody but the moral quandary is not without interest to me .

I'm sure he pays his staff a fair wage for the job , most highly successful businessmen do . Paying some greedy footballer an obscene wedge for (let's face it) very little work of real worth to humanity is quite another matter . If Christ were to make his long overdue second coming do you think he'd approve of players taking home £50k -£150k a week when countless millions of the poor starve on a few Dollars a day ? If Jesus would not approve then it follows that the faithful shouldn't either .

Interesting to hear of Markus Leibherr's strong religious faith - if the master plan works out and we find ourselves back in the EPL some day ML will have to deal with the implications of employing players on weekly wages than could quite literally sustain 100's of poor people in the third world for a year or more . In the light of basic Christian ideology he may find that a somewhat uncomfortable situation to be in .

I'd be surprised if Sunderland were still bottom of the table that October .

It seems to be most football clubs are in a constant state of flux most of the time , players and managers come and go and our problems this season (although severe) are far from unique . Some League 1 examples off the top of my head : Colchester Utd - Have recently lost both their manager and team captain but nevertheless in the play-off zone with a 2 PPG average Norwich City - Lost 7-1 to Colchester Utd on the opening day of the season and sack their manager immediately . Residing in the play-off zone (on a 1.6 PPG average) Bristol Rovers - lost their best player and principle goal scorer (R Lambert) after the season had started - did that not give them a problem ? (now on a 2 PPG average) Stockport County - Entered Administration at the same time as SFC and (unlike SFC) have hardly any money to spend . (on a comparable 1 PPG average) The point is whatever difficulties you are labouring under you just have to get on with it - you could well argue that other clubs have made a better fist of that than we have so far .

No argument from me , the current team would beat last years 9 times out of 10 in all probability . Having a wealthy owner has much to recommend it .

The OP is well aware (but opts to ignore) the inconvenient fact that we are currently running at a 1.25 points per game ave - if that form were to be maintained it would not be the top of the table that need be our concern this season . It remains my view that it's out of order to manipulate the stats to suite a particular point of view or argument . You have to walk before you can run , at this time we find ourselves bottom of the table with more than a quarter of the season already past so lets concentrate on getting out of the relegation zone before we start any (massively premature) play-off dreams . A challenge for any stat hounds out there : Has any team that held bottom of the table position in October ever gone on to achieve promotion that same season ?

I'm more than happy to accept that the preseason was massively disrupted - why wouldn't I ? it's the plain and simple truth after all . I'm less happy to accept that we're totally alone in that or that every other team in the league had their squads fully complete by game one either . In the final analysis it doesn't matter because it won't mean anything come next May when excuses quite literally don't count . I'm by nature against manipulating facts to suite a particular point of view or argument , I consider only counting our recent (better) results rather than the whole seasons effort to steer perilously close to that form of (mild) dishonesty to be frank . I must maintain that the facts/stats I employed in my post are quite raw and perfectly accurate as far as they go , although there are always deeper truths underlying any set of mere numbers . Nick my friend I'm sure there is one thing we can both agree on - last week saw a noticeable improvement in our fortunes and if AP and his team can sustain that welcome trend over the coming months we'll do well this season and everyone on here will be happy . ps - please don't take me so seriously , nobody else does

All right then I apologise for my blatant attempt to mislead and confuse the forum using facts , I'm a bad , bad boy

1 game is a better basis for analysis than 12 ?

Well it is what it is , unless I've got the numbers wrong somewhere ? The context has been extensively debated elsewhere .