Verbal

Why don't you cut the stupid, childish insults and stay with the debate. If you disagree with him, say why, instead of trolling your own threads and hurling ad hominem garbage around.

Oh, I've no doubt it seems a good thing to many right now. As I did actually say, I can understand all the whooping. Unfortunately, as far as the City is concerned, Europe - and the French and Germans in particular - are thinking revenge is a dish best served cold. Watch what happens when the City loses all that euro-denominated business, billions of it, and Cameron tries to play his trump card...the one he no longer has.

See the thread title and the OP. And the Daily Mail and its cherished readers. And the opinion polls...

They'd be prohibited from doing so under the proposals being discussed last week. London would lose all its euro-deominated trades - a massive loss. I understand the sense of euphoric glee that's followed Cameron's veto, but the damaging effects of it are highly likely to unwind for months and years to come. The oddest thing is that Cameron made the specific point to other EU heads that he wasn't interested in anything or anyone other that the major British banks - and yet he's probably damaged them as well.

No, I'm agreeing with you! Of course Italy and Spain may well default. But that's a problem for the BANKS not the euro. The ECB is constitutionally forbidden to buy sovereign debt, so if Italy and Spain default, and whizz out of the euro, the euro is stronger; it's the banks that suffer (hence the panic about Commerzbank). You still haven't addressed my point about the huge likely damage to the City as a result of Cameron's veto - but probably the best thing to do is wait and see. The opinion of many is that the City will be shut out of transaction-taxed euro trades - a huge market it has so far cornered. To prevent this damage, Cameron would have to have some strong bargaining chips - which is precisely what he no longer has.

Interesting. Elections by the end of next year perhaps?

But the markets are assuming defaults! (The Greeks, certainly; others probably.) Hence, the strength of the euro - unless you're suggesting the buyers of euros are a sentimental bunch. The more the southern European defaulters flame out, the more likely in the medium term the euro persists. And, as I say, Cameron has inadvertently created a situation that may ultimately screw over the City, at least as far as euro transactions are concerned, and with his severely weakened bargaining position, there will be little he can do about it.

I'm afraid you're the laughter machine here, Sergei. You might need to address my central point that the euro, which you seem so convinced is heading down the pan, is still trading so strongly against the pound. And you're inadvertently confirming my other point, that the more the dodgy economies are ejected by default from the euro, the stronger the euro is. I don't 'ignore' Italy and Spain (or Portugal or Ireland) defaulting - on the contrary, the more the merrier as far as the currency traders are concerned, as long as it's not the core euro countries of France, Germany and the Benelux. As for Cameron, it remains to be seen just how much damage he's done to the City by offering the French and the Germans the golden opportunity to restrict euro transactions to transaction-taxed eurozone banks (logical - otherwise the French and the Germans would be saying: Hey, let's give the City a huge unfair advantage!). But damage there will be - and Cameron will be negotiating from a position of far greater weakness.

Running this forum is clearly taking its toll on poor old Baj.

There seems to be some confusion on here between failing public finances in some countries and the fate of the euro itself. If you check the exchange rate between the pound and the euro, the latter is anything but failing - it continues to be historically strong against the pound, and the pound tends to track the euro up and down. The euro will certainly (and obviously) survive the ejection from it of countries like Greece, assuming the inevitable happens and it defaults. If anything, this is likely in the medium term to strengthen the euro, and it'll be seen by markets as a better bet than the pound (the fact that it is seen as no worse even now is telling.) Greece will default, leave the euro, and pursue a course already taken by other major defaulters like Argentina (which de-coupled from the US$, heavily devalued, went into a further tailspin, before competitive international trading advantages eventually kicked in. The country is now back to something like health - all in all an 8-10 year cycle.) So the euro will be strengthened by Greece's exit (and perhaps by other defaults too). Meanwhile, the advantages that the City in London has enjoyed from being the main trading centre in Europe for euro transactions will fall away as new EU regulations, proposed this week, insist upon such trades being conducted within the eurozone. The City will suffer - and hey presto, Cameron (who, the word is, exceeded his brief from officials for precisely this reason) will have achieved the very opposite of what he presumably intended, and actually undermined the City's dominant trading position.

Why don't you stop the juvenile insults about parenting?

As Karl Marx said, those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it - the second time as farce. This time it's not a two-way split but three. Septic Tories to the right of him, demanding referendums he can't possibly give; Euro-fan Tories and Lib Dems to the left scowling at his face-saving posturing that is about as effective as tilting at windmills. As before, it'll be the ruin of Dave and his Bullingdon chums.

Really? So where are the minarets and sand dunes?

'Omygod! Trampoline!' Those Scots have a fine sense of proportion.

Mathematicians no, but grammarians - plenty.

I've seen it already Um - I get to vote on it!

Or to express it without the 'City' euphemism, Cameron's big idea is to defend the big banks as his number one priority in Europe - the same banks whose staggering greed and incompetence almost wiped Western capitalism off the map, and may yet still do so. British citizens' eroded rights didn't even rate a 'priority' number.

Yet more condemnation from within the Tory toff ranks, this time from a rather more reliable source... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2069761/Sally-Bercow-brands-Cameron-toff-whos-touch.html

The media would move on, the footballers themselves too, probably, in most cases... But the football fans? I doubt it - at least en masse on matchdays. Where's the evidence that they would just let it lie? Just imagine if one of the Brighton players really was gay... It's also tautological to call a taboo 'self-enforcing' - all of them are to some degree. But no taboo would need to be broken if it easy to come out of the closet.

Then wouldn't Droppings from the Crow's Nest be better?

Read carefully what you've just written.

You can't have it both ways (so to speak). Either it's easy for footballers to come out, or it's breaking the taboo.

I am hopelessly crushed. I just wish I had your gift for the perfect bon mot. BTW, what's with the unfeasibly aspirational username?

I read that as guilty.

Just seeking answers that matter from those with a misspelt youth.