DuncanRG

What are they holding those silly cards for? There is no racism in football.

It's always wise to take on the opinions of qualified neutrals writing for papers like the Guardian. They don't care if our team or players are good or bad, they just say it as they see it.

Sakho did look a bit shakey on Monday, he probably wasn't training to play with Skrtel which can't have helped. Skrtel had a good game though, I'd expect him to start.

Double post

Playing two strikers away at the top teams would require a seriously conservative midfield and only widen the gap between the middle and final thirds, a problem we had at home on Sunday. I can't imagine Pochettino will go for Osvaldo and Lambert but I'm not sure who he'd pick. Haha, sorry - I absolutely support the team and think we are capable of getting a result but I can see things from their perspective. If we expect (rightly) to get a home win against West Ham, who tanked us 4-1 last season, then they can expect to beat us. Whether or not they will is another matter. At no point did I suggest we won't pose a challenge! Bale and (though I hate to admit it) Le Tissier aren't on Gerrard's level. Bale has massive potential but potential he remains; Le Tissier was a phenomenal goalscorer but Gerrard has run the entire team, attack and defence, for over a decade. For me there are just a handful of players who can match Gerrard in the Premier League era, the likes of Giggs, Scholes and Lampard.

Can't say any of those are too far out. I couldn't recall players from around the world but it's fair to say Gerrard's probably the best Premier League player to have never won the title. I doubt we'll get tanked three or four nil but they're right to expect a win at home. This is very encouraging, but they've got a reasonably deep squad now and won't field a team much weaker than the one we played at Anfield last year.

Stonewall have launched an anti-homophobia campaign encouraging players to wear rainbow-coloured laces as a mark of solidarity with footballers who keep their sexuality a secret. There's a lovely thread on it here, one part reasonable discussion and three parts 'bum sex' jokes On topic, players miss chances but great ones don't do it too often. We'll see what Osvaldo does with the next one; I suspect he'll bury it. I'll always remember this from Thierry Henry at the peak of his powers, when he was so good that people were genuinely shocked that he could miss (#7)

Good point, though we can consider the reverence players and former players have for Jose Mourinho, who's worked for his fair share of commanding owners.

Some feed wider systems of oppression - racism, sexism, homophobia - which have further reaching and infinitely more damaging consequences for those affected. Others, though not related to such systems, can be deeply personal - which is why you don't get chants mocking Stilyan Petrov's cancer, and why Billy Sharp might be called fat but won't be mocked for the death of his unborn child. We draw those lines ourselves, but I think some, such as homophobia and classism, need to be shifted. But that's genuinely it now! Can't stay away from you lot, can I...

Thanks, though I do wish you'd follow my example.

We'll see. We've learnt by now not to speculate what might happen without prior evidence I'm going to sit out for a while, but this has been a good talk. Keep it up!

I certainly wouldn't partake in them, but they're not quite the same. I hate chants like 'sign on' because it seems to me like elite, affluent Southerners making fun of poor people who struggle to make ends meet*. Nationality is sort of different because it tends not to hit home like race, sexuality or socioeconomic status, and it's not aimed at an oppressed minority. I take personal interest in addressing the damage caused by imperialism and the North/South divide, though, so it particularly annoys me when people feed it. *buctootim's point about paradoxes comes into play here.

It was stuff along the lines of 'get up you gay!', which he tended to yell when somebody got tackled. I asked why he was saying that; he didn't have an answer and stopped. Perhaps it was just to appease me, but still... You are, again, kidding yourself if you don't think they were calling him gay and intending it as an insult. I will happily single people out when they're mocking others on the basis of their race, religion, gender, sexuality etc. Some chants are based on other, acceptable, things, e.g. 'shall we sing a song for you?'

She was too far away but I'd have said something otherwise. Have done before. Makes you wonder what fans will sing if Birmingham becomes a 'minority majority' city... 'Ha! You've got a lot of brown people!'

No. EDIT: Graeme Le Saux - How gay slurs almost wrecked my career

You are well beyond kidding yourself if you think people chant these things at Brighton fans as a 'genuine question'. It's intended to mock them. I actually heard those exact words on Sunday when Mohamed Diame was on the floor.

Okay. If we suppose the problem is with them, and it's no more complex than that, then all that needs to happen is football to prove that there's nothing to worry about. Widely adopting this sign of support, however trivial you think it may be, is one way of doing that. Posting on an internet forum opposing the campaign, and making all sorts of homophobic comments along the way, is not. Read this collection of facts, ideas and articles for an idea of what evidence does exist. Check the sources if you think it's unreliable.

Nope, nope, nope nope nope. Go back to the Guardian article and read about the eight players who approached a gay rights group about it. They're not comfortable.

Who knows? In the absence of an individual as brave as John Barnes or Benjamin Odeje we need to think of something else. EDIT: though I may speculate that part of it is the fact that black footballers and female officials can't do the job at all without revealing their race or gender.

Without any openly gay players we cannot draw from experience, but at least seven players have reason to believe it would happen. You'd have to ask them. The point of this campaign is to prove that it won't happen, and that football supports them. You may, however, want to look at the chants Brighton and Hove Albion get every week, the reaction to rumours of homosexuality surrounding players like Matt Taylor and Graeme Le Saux, and reports of clubs encouraging players to stay quiet to maintain marketability.

Because the rainbow is an international symbol for gay rights and gay pride.

They're inviting straight footballers to wear them as a sign of solidarity. Not because gay players like rainbow laces (though you, of course, know that and just wanted to make a joke at homosexuals' expense) but because the rainbow is an international symbol for gay rights and gay pride.

'Eight footballers say 'we're gay' but keep quiet in fear of fans' "Gay campaigners told the Observer that Clarke Carlisle, chairman of the Professional Footballers' Association, had revealed that eight players had approached him to disclose that they were gay. Seven told him that the reason they would not reveal their sexual orientation publicly was not the reaction from the dressing room or club, but the potential reaction from the media and supporters." "Stonewall, the gay charity, has conducted research finding that 60% of supporters believe that anti-gay abuse from fans dissuades players from coming out."

Robbie Rogers and Justin Fashanu are the only British players to have done so.

I've read interviews with the few who have come out, understood their best guesses, understood alternative explanations and used it all to come to a conclusion. I'd also like to note a change in my perception that's come about from the discussion over the last few pages. We've been talking about movements being the product of changed attitudes rather than the cause of them; perhaps that's what the campaign is about. Perhaps English football has reached a point where gay footballers are safe to come out and Stonewall are trying to prove it.