Donatello

Give him a crack....and then when it turns out that he's inevitably not ready...then what? Best to have experienced first-teamers players that can be supplanted if the talent below (I.e. youth players) exists, than start with untested youth players supported by mediocre backup (I.e. players who sign knowing they're backup).

The issue at Stoke was that Kelvin 'decided' (inexplicably) to let them right back into the game immediately after the commencement of the second half. We were *very* good value for that 1-nil lead. Anyway, yes, a lack of motivation(?) does seem to have given rise to a fair few individual-player mistakes

A) Without wishing to call what you've said into disrepute, who (are these goalscorers)? B) Without wishing to self-publisize, haha, see this - http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?54139-Youth-Academy-Representation-14-15-Season#.VU8NL25wbMI. You could still be unhappy, mind, but it's context all the same

He\She was referring to Djuricic. Furthermore, they were discussing player attributes, not player history\contribution - can be treated separately (IMO). But you've essentially proved my point A 'limited' player can contribute, as you say, "massively".

Would you not agree that Bertrand is still trying to make runs into the opposition third? I watched on TV and can remember two specific incidents in the first a half (once played through by Mane, the other ended in some sort of love-tangle with Albrighton). I ask because you were at the game (rather than insisting that it's true). Where Clyne is concerned, his lack of effort to run the channel is painfully apparent. There is no other player that rivals the disappointment I feel towards Clyne. Seriously needs to have a word with himself\show some commitment\professionalism. Given our reliance on crosses to score this season, I'm surprised Koeman has torn him a new one. Perhaps there's some leniency being displayed in the hope he'll sign this ruddy contract(?). Tread lightly territory.

Entirely on Toby, I reckons. I have *no* idea why he decided to leave Mahrez and run past Fonte to intercept the ball, only to hesitate and decide not to commit to winning it. Oddest decision-making I've seen from him. I'm surprised you're the first to have specifically mentioned the incident in this thread (given how glaring it was).

Have you not just described Steven Davis of the past 3 seasons? Reference Elia, blaming one player (who's started half of the games since Newcastle) for the scoring form of the entire team is simplistic in the extreme.

Update: Following this request, I have included all clubs. Data accurate (as far as I can determine) as of gameweek 36 / 08-05-15. Reference source/veracity, a combination of sites. PremierLeague.com for statistics, verified against stat sites such as Transfermarkt, WhoScored, etc. Other data sourced from Wikipedia and various news articles (when necessary to establish player age at time when joining academy). It could be all wrong, admittedly. Just collating. P.S I've changed the presentation. It may not be as aesthetically pleasing, but it's more compact. Happy to change it back though (to a more vertical layout). As always, please correct me where inaccurate/wrong P.P.S Oh, and thanks for the praise, of course.

Reference City, wrong is wrong I didn't set out to prove anyone wrong anyway I just had trouble accepting what was said, and since a source wasn't provided, that is what motivated me to find out the above. But as for that matter, the underlying argument has been that Koeman doesn't give the youth academy a chance. I think the information above should disabuse anyone of that notion (although I'd personally like to see more of Reed). Ultimately, and as you've alluded to, there are several lines of questioning. A) Academy players representing parent club, B) Under 21s (academy) representing parent club, and C) Academy representation across the entire league (which I think Windows was talking about?). I opted for A and B, because ascertaining C is a mammoth task by itself - nor was it relevant to what I wanted to find out. So, if Windows was opting for the C argument(?), I don't think my 'research' proves one way or t'other. If B, then I think it's understandable given the sale of last years crop (rather than being a failing of the club/Koeman). Anyway, what struck me is that in spite of winning 4 out of the past 6 FA youth cups, Chelsea seem to offer nada on the academy front (to date). Loftus-Cheek is supposed to be the nuts though. Anyway, thanks ("good research").

He was just within the right-hand side of the box for the first, if memory serves. Not quite Mane-esque flopping, but still a pretty weak display. The second, he was plain wiped out by Joe Allen, so he can't be criticised (fairly) on that count. To be honest, given his shooting accuracy to date, I'd rather he win pens, ha.

He absolutely is! I've even got him listed down so it beggars belief that I was able to miss him out when searching for stats, ha. D'oh. Cheers for the prompt, I'll update shortly. Do say if I'm missed any others out, please.

Now on the BBC - £25-30 million/€33.5-€40 million.

No criticism on my part. As alluded to previously, I merely wanted to ascertain if someone else's claim that our youth academy is represented least of all (when compared to other top 7/8 sides) was true. I couldn't countenance this, hence the lil' research. As it transpires, we're doing remarkably well, I'd say - particularly when you factor in that Sterling was cherry-picked for a potentially high fee. Reference 4 teenagers being played, good spot, I hadn't looked at the data in such a way. Teenage representation (in terms of minutes played) at Saints is roughly half of the total for the other 6 clubs combined (Sterling, McNair, Loftus-Cheek, and Akpom). Interesting stuff (to the likes of me, anyway). Oh, and with regards to your point about established stars, exactly my thinking, hence why I represented the summary as is (weighted by under 21 mins). Apologies if that was lost in translation.

Not that it's of any significance, but I think Djuricic's best performance was home against Liverpool. He got in behind their defense on several occasions (twice which I can vaguely remember, one of which was a weak shout for a pen). He was also the player fouled for the nailed on penalty which the ref bottled. An atrocious refereeing performance, by all accounts.

Asking is fine by me, and we all look like pillocks at one stage or another (not suggesting that you do currently!), so I wouldn't worry about such things., I've not really drawn any conclusions. It's just raw data. For my part, i wanted to ascertain if what another poster had stated as fact, was indeed fact. That is, have our youth players played fewer minutes than the academy youth from other top 8 clubs (in this case top 7). The stats above show that we've accrued the second highest number of mins for youth players under the age of 21. Second only to Liverpool, whose entire under 21 academy representation comes in the form of Sterling, who was snapped from QPR's youth set-up age 15 for up to £5 million. What else is proves is up for debate. I didn't approach it with an agenda as such, merely truth-seeking/satisfying my curiosity on the subject.

Merged.

Following a post by a certain member in the 'Summer 2015 HCDAJFU' thread, in which it was stated as fact (I'm not being pedantic, that's simply the case) that Southampton academy players have been represented least of all (by respective parent club) when compared to academy players of all other Top 8 clubs, I decided to do a little diggin', A) because I was curious, and B) No source was given, despite my asking Reference parameters, I've defined an academy player as a player who was at his current club by the age of 16 - which is pretty lenient as is. Furthermore, I've included a total minutes for all players produced by the academy, and a total minutes for academy players under the age of 21 at the beginning of this season. Oh, and please feel free to correct me. Summary (arranged by U21 total descending) [table=width: 500, class: grid, align: left] [tr] [td]Club[/td] [td]Liverpool[/td] [td]Southampton[/td] [td]ManchesterUnited[/td] [td]Everton[/td] [td]AstonVilla[/td] [td]Newcastle[/td] [td]QPR[/td] [td]WestHam[/td] [td]Arsenal[/td] [td]Chelsea[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]U21[/td] [td] 2867 [/td] [td] 2020 [/td] [td] 1995 [/td] [td] 1788 [/td] [td] 569 [/td] [td] 316 [/td] [td] 234 [/td] [td] 180 [/td] [td] 30 [/td] [td] 1 [/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Total[/td] [td] 5569 [/td] [td] 2029 [/td] [td] 3035 [/td] [td] 3126 [/td] [td] 5010 [/td] [td] 4695 [/td] [td] 288 [/td] [td] 4145 [/td] [td] 2055 [/td] [td] 3151 [/td] [/tr] [/table] [table=width: 500, class: grid, align: left] [tr] [td]Club[/td] [td]StokeCity[/td] [td]Tottenham[/td] [td]LeicesterCity[/td] [td]WestBrom[/td] [td]CrystalPalace[/td] [td]Swansea[/td] [td]Burnley[/td] [td]HullCity[/td] [td]ManCity[/td] [td]Sunderland[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]U21[/td] [td] 1 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Total[/td] [td] 1 [/td] [td] 5116 [/td] [td] 4394 [/td] [td] 2735 [/td] [td] 1807 [/td] [td] 425 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [td] 0 [/td] [/tr] [/table] 'Workings' Format Name-Age-Mins (Age as of 1st game of this season) Arsenal Kieran Gibbs - 24 - 1480, Jack Wilshire - 22 - 545, Chuba Akpom - 18 - 30. Total - 2055 U21 - 30 Aston Villa Ciaran Clark - 24 - 1992, Andreas Weimann - 23 - 1775, Nathan Baker - 23 - 674, Jack Grealish - 18 - 561, Rushian Hepburn-Murphy - 15 - 8. Total - 5010 U21 - 569 Burnley Total - 0 U21 - 0 Chelsea John Terry - 33 - 3150, Ruben Loftus-Cheek - 18 - 1. Total - 3151 U21 - 1 Crystal Palace Wilfried Zaha - 21 - 1771, Jonathan Williams - 20 - 36. Total - 1807 U21 - 0 Everton Ross Barkley - 20 - 1757, Leon Osman - 33 - 1009, Tony Hibbert - 33 - 329, Tyias Browning - 20 - 31. Total - 3126 U21 - 1788 Hull City Total - 0 U21 - 0 Leicester City Jeff Schlupp - 21 - 2261, Andy King - 25 - 1196, Liam Moore - 21 - 937. Total - 4394 U21 - 0 Liverpool Raheem Sterling - 19 - 2867, Steven Gerrard - 34 - 1978, Rickie Lambert - 32 - 724. Total - 5569 U21 - 2867 (Sterling joined from QPR in 2010, aged 15. Hmm). Manchester City Dedryck Boyata - removed, joined city aged 16. Total - 0 U21 - 0 Manchester United Johnny Evans - 26 - 1039, Paddy McNair - 19 - 1021, Tyler Blackett - 20 - 635, James Wilson - 18 - 339, Tom Thorpe - 21. Total - 3035 U21 - 1995 Newcastle United Paul Dummett - 22 - 1837, Sammy Ameobi - 22 - 1395, Steven Taylor - 28 - 652, Jak Alnwick - 21 - 495, Adam Armstrong - 17 - 211, Rolando Aarons - 18 - 105 (Released by Bristol City in 2012, aged 16). Total - 4695 U21 - 316 QPR Darnell Furlong - 18 - 225, Michael Doughty - 21 - 54, Reece Grego-Cox - 17 - 9. Total - 288 U21 - 234 Southampton James Ward-Prowse - 19 - 1365, Harrison Reed - 19 - 370, Matt Targett - 18 - 226, Jake Hesketh - 18 - 52, Lloyd Isgrove - 21 - 9, James McCarthy - 18 - 4, Dominic Gape - 19 - 2, Ryan Seager - 18 - 1. Total - 2029 U21 - 2020 Sunderland Stoke City Ollie Shenton - 16 - 1. Total – 1 U21 - 1 Swansea Jazz Richards - 23 - 425 (moved from Cardiff in 2007, potentially 16 at time, i.e. potentially erroneous). Total - 425 U21 - 0 Tottenham Harry Kane - 21 - 2318, Ryan Mason - 23 - 2055, Andros Townsend - 23 - 743. Total - 5116 U21 - 0. West Bromwich Albion Saido Berahino - 21 - 2735. Total – 2735 U21 - 0 West Ham United Mark Noble - 27 - 2135, James Tomkins - 25 - 1830, Reece Burke - 17 - 180. Total - 4145 U21 - 180

Source, please. I'd love to do some reading on this.

MP Callum Chambers (debut and 1st start) Sam Gallagher (debut and 1st start) Harrison Reed RK Dominic Gape Jake Hesketh (debut and 1st start) Lloyd Isgrove Jason McCarthy Harrison Reed (1st start) Ryan Seagar Matt Targett (debut and 1st start) Most from memory, had to double-check for Reed, don't quote me

Koeman started Hesketh away at Turf Moor...where his lack of body strength (which will come with time, I have no doubt) was promptly highlighted and he had to be stretchered off (in the first half). He hasn't featured since, which I can only assume is in some part due the reason stated above (lacking physical frame/needs protection). Ward-Prowse started under Pochettino but only because we had nothing in the right-sided midfield department, i.e. he was often deployed on the right flank (which, incidentally, is where I'd like to see him played for the time being). This year JWP has been played in his preferred position, AM and CM, and in spite of his injury which persisted for a couple of months (if I recall correctly), he's still made as many starts this season as he did last season. Reference Gallagher, after his dad's passing, I'm not sure what the heck happened. He's been injured, supposedly, but I get the impression that he needed some time out of the limelight anyway (understandably). Irrespective of this, Koeman has a choice between Mane/Pelle/Long and Sam '1 goal in 18 appearances' Gallagher (not a criticism of Gallagher, merely highlighting his current lack of goal-scoring record). Point being, aside from not playing Reed as much as I would like, I can't really find fault with Koeman where youth-policy is concerned. Hesketh, Targett, Gape, Seagar, and McCarthy have all attained their debuts this year (albeit token for the latter three...I think...I can't remember...but they played! haha)

Oops. Ditto and all that (your post wasn't there when I started typing).

Possibly. But that "5 or 6" would've included Lallana, Shaw and Chambers. It was hardly an effort for Pochettino. Koeman hasn't had the same luxury, so it's a nonsense comparison (imo).

Mhmm. Loans (with an opinion to buy) are more than adequate when trying to pad the squad.

I imagine Clasie is several kilos (minimum) heavier than Hesketh in spite of the height disparity (although they're purportedly the same height).