sadoldgit

This all day long. Muslim lives are no more expendable than Jewish lives. The idea that somehow these thousands of people’s lives are the price worth paying to pay Hamas back for their own murderous actions is beyond inhuman. And the UN are exactly right to say that this hasn’t happened in a vacuum. The Hamas attack was a result of 7 decades of conflict. They didn’t just wake up two weeks ago and decide to do it on a whim. For an Israeli official to call for the resignation of the UN Secretary General for stating the obvious is just another example of this idea that somehow the actions of the Israeli government are beyond reproach. I have pinched this brilliant quote from another forum. ”Israel is the the West’s overindulged, badly behaved toddler who has never been told ‘no’ , who has now grown up and the people of Israel and Gaza are paying the price of our negligence”.

Of course arial bombing wasn’t an issue in 1907. There were various attempts to bring in specific legislation over the years, especially in 1946, but for various reasons they failed or were not conclusive enough. It was not until Protocol 1 was brought in in December 1978 that it we finally had this legislation in place. As for hypochondriac he has previous for posting against normal, peaceful Muslims and seems to have no problem with genocide being visited upon the Palestinians.

There was a harrowing report on the Gaza situation on BBC, Panorama, last night. They spoke to some of the loved ones of the victims from the attacks from both sides and it was heartbreaking, especially the last one where you thought the whole family would survive after two night of bombing. You have to have a heart made of stone to care about the innocent victims of the Hamas attacks but be relatively unconcerned about the disproportionately growing loss of life of innocent women and children from the air attacks by Israel. Why is that? Are the lives of innocent Muslim women and children somehow worth less? You are right. The policy is hurt us and we will hurt you more. It always has been. It hasn’t worked before and it will not work again. The (carpet) bombing of civilians was not illegal under international law back then but it is now. I made the mistake of reading a book about the bombing of Dresden a few years ago. It created a huge firestorm killing some 25,000 people and the description of the destruction was beyond horrific. As much as the Blitz and the bombing of Coventry etc. offers some kind of mitigation, reading about the deliberate mass destruction of innocent people and their homes, who ever they are, leaves a sour taste in the mouth, much like the shelling of civilians now.

Napoleon once called us a nation of shopkeepers. According to the daily news reports it seems that we have now become a nation of shoplifters. 😩

No doubt they will be producing the evidence soon then which refutes the forensic information that shows that the projectile that caused the explosion in the car park was launched from the NE and not the SW as originally claimed. I notice that Sunak is still using the word “likely”. Doesn’t sound that firm does it given that they have had several days now to investigate. It would be good to have something conclusive though, I’m sure you will agree. Given the thousands of innocent men, women and children that have been killed by Israeli air strikes so far though this particular incident is becoming less relevant by the day.

I’m not sure what you main issue is here. Is it that they haven’t “battered” people peacefully protesting in support of innocent Muslims? Given that this Government proposes to let convicted criminals to leave prison before the end of their sentences, would you be happy with their places taken by protesters? Or are you just happy for them to be “battered”? I appreciate that you are just as unhappy about the lack of “battering” as the Home Secretary, but perhaps, given the amount of criticism the Met have received for previous heavy handedness at protests, they decided to use some common sense this time?

This one goes into more detail. Is this what you were talking about? https://www.channel4.com/news/human-rights-investigators-raise-new-questions-on-gaza-hospital-explosion

Just been looking at some forensic reports about the projectile that struck the hospital car par last week. Despite Israeli claims that it was travelling from the SW direction it seems it actually came from the NE. Also the Israeli’s presented a recorded conversation from two alleged Hamas personnel claiming that one of their missiles had misfired. This recording appears to have been doctored, according to an independent forensic research outfit.

Sorry but I don’t see what your response has to do what I wrote. I’ll try again with an example. Last week the pro Palestinian March in London was joined by a number of Jewish people (I have no idea of their country of origin but that isn’t important here). They were very critical of Netanyahu’s latest moves which are harshly effecting innocent Palestinians. According to Duckhunter, if you criticise a Jew, that is anti-Semitism. They were critical of Netanyahu, who is Jewish. Does that make them anti-Semites? A simply yes or no will suffice. The basic issue here is censorship. You should be able to reasonably criticise, question and hold to account anybody or anything, especially governments, without the fear of being shut down as a hater, unless of course you are happy living in an Orwellian world. If you adhere to the internationally agreed rules you should have nothing to fear on the world stage concerning your own conduct. Terrorists do not which leaves them open to condemnation. When States do not either, they are in no position to cry foul if they are also condemned for their actions. Netanyahu and his government are currently facing a great deal of criticism for their response to the recent Hamas attacks and the handling of the Palestinian issues in general, not just from outside of Israel but also from within. That does not make the people making these criticisms anti-Semites. This really shouldn’t even be an issue but it does demonstrate perfectly how this particular card has been played given that it is even being discussed at length on a football forum.

No I am not struggling. You know exactly what point I am making. What would I call you? Maybe a Mossad Propaganda bot? Odd that you can’t spell Netanyahu’s name correctly. No, I am not that dopey. Once again you have either deliberately ignored my point or you haven’t understood it. Just for avoidance of doubt, is it now anti-Semitic to refer to Jewish people as Jews now? On a brighter note, two of the hostages taken by Hamas have been released.

Wonderful news! What was even better is that many Tory voters who didn’t feel that they could vote for anyone else decided to stay at home. They can do the nation a great service in staying at home for the general election too. A Tory voter on the radio this morning said that he didn’t vote this time because Sunak is too far to the left of centre!!! Somehow he has completely missed how far to the right the rest of the cabinet are. He then went on to say that he could never vote Labour and would probably vote for the Reform Party next time.

I mentioned “Jews” because Duckhunter’s definition of anti-Semtisism mentioned “Jews”. His exact words “I call people who criticise Jews anti-Semitic”. Now let’s look at a grown up definition from the Cambridge dictionary - “Hate or strong dislike of Jews or actions that express hate or dislike of Jews”. Surely even the most hard of thinking individual can see that there is a massive difference between the two. When we talk of Russian actions in the Ukraine it is a given that we are talking about Putin’s regime rather than individual Russians (although clearly his wishes are being carried out in the main by a number of his countrymen). When I talk about what is happening in the Middle East I assumed that most people would understand that I was talking about the Israeli state rather than Jewish people as individuals. Many Jewish people want reconciliation and peace and are not supportive of the current government. If I have not made that clear I will hold up my hands and apologise and hopefully this will make my position clear. I have absolutely no hatred or dislike of the Jewish people just as I have no hatred or dislike of Russian people. What happens and what has been clearly happening here is that if you level justifiable questions about the actions of the Israeli state, the defenders of their actions have no justifiable defence so their default position is to call out people as “anti-Semitic”. It was used to attack Corbyn no matter what he was talking about. It is all over social media when people try and discuss what has been going on in the last week in Israel and Gaza. It is so bad that even the leader of the opposition is absolutely terrified of saying anything that could remotely be misconstrued as being anti-Semitic. The BBC, who are clearly bending over backwards to try and tiptoe through the impartiality minefield, are being pressured by senior Israeli officials about their coverage with the spectre of claims of being labelled anti-Semitic hanging in the air. I have heard from ex Guardian colleagues that the Board of Deputies of British Jews is constantly in the ear of editor Kath Viner. Rumour has it that the sacking of cartoonist Steve Bell might be down to pressure from them. I don’t believe for one minute that anyone here hates Jews so let’s discuss what is actually happening and park the imaginary stuff which is purely a tactic to deflect from the real issues. Getting back to the issues, our PM, Rishi Sunak (or Doctor Death if you have been following the depressing Covid enquiry) made a speech yesterday with Netanyahu, looked at him and said “We hope you win”. Win? This is not a football match. Even if the campaign to flatten Gaza and kill every Hamas operative there, that will not be a “win”. All it will do is fuel more hatred, recruit more terrorists, justify further murderous attacks on innocent Jewish people. Destroy Hamas and its place will be taken by others. There is no win and a proper statesman would understand that. A “win” would be a ceasefire and an ending of the bloodshed and destruction, humanitarian aid being supplied to those entrapped in Gaza and moves from the UN and all Arab states to find a mutually acceptable compromise that will lead to peace in the area in the future. Sadly we still have to wait a year before we have a proper, grown up PM again but on the upside at least Trump is not involved (for now 🥴).

I’ll come to your bizarre notion that somehow Jewish people are above criticism just by dint of being Jews in a moment. I am surprised that I have to defend my post as I thought that the basic principle was self evident, that being that the mass murder and mass displacement of innocent men, women and children is indefensible, inexcusable and contravenes not just international law but any level of basic human decency. This is the same no matter who the victims are - Jews, Muslims, Arabs or any other religions, races, creeds. No one has the moral, divine or legal right to treat others like that, not even Jews. Genocide is genocide, no matter who the perpetrators are. Your assertion that anybody that criticises Jews is an anti-Semite is bizarre, even for you. On what level does being Jewish mean that you are not accountable for your actions without the person holding you to account being labelled an anti-Semite? Do you really not understand how ridiculous that is? By your logic anyone calling out Harvey Weinstein for being a rapist is an anti-Semite. If your view is that the Israeli government is entitled to do whatever it wants, where ever it wants to whoever it wants, fine. But don’t label people anti-Semites if they don’t agree with you. I don’t see any anti-Semites on this thread, but there might be a few Islamophobes. Stop conflating sympathy for innocent Palestinians with support for Hamas. What is a “fact” is that you are still stuck in the 1970’s and you often make Alf Garnett look “woke”. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-arrested-at-jewish-us-capitol-rally-demanding-israeli-ceasefire-in-gaza/amp/ Anti-semites?

Given that complaints about bias reporting in this conflict are running about 50/50 so far I would say that the BBC are doing a pretty good job tip toeing through the various sensibilities of the viewing public. They have made the point several times that as an international broadcasting company they have to be seen as being impartial. Several countries (including some in Europe) do not refer to Hamas as a terrorist organisation. Every day in the news reports I have seen by the BBC they make the point that the UK government view Hamas as a terrorist organisation. Seems reasonable to me. Yes, the paedo stuff was pretty grim. Those of us around at the time will remember that a blind eye was turned to many things that are not acceptable today. Drink driving for one was rife back in the 70’s. You don’t have to go much further than the Benny Hill show to see that a chubby middle aged man chasing you women in their undies was prime time family entertainment. Did you boycott the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, David Bowie or John Peel? Members of those bands and the latter two were open about having sex with under aged girls at the time. It wasn’t just the BBC turning a blind eye. Only you would attempt to conflate the Daily Mail with the BBC 🙄. As you well know, one is owned by a very rich man who uses it to support his right wing ideology and the Tory government. The other is an independent public broadcasting service of world renown. I can’t believe for one minute that you have never watched or listened to any output from the BBC. Even if you don’t now, as pointed out, we all pay for lots of public services that we don’t use. I don’t see you complaining about that. This country would be a lot poorer without the BBC and if you don’t use any of its content then more fool you (but thanks for your selfless annual contributions so that the rest of us can).

I can’t be bothered to read all of the flood of posts from hypochondriac since he woke up but he seems to have outdone himself this time, even compared with his obsessive posts in the transfer thread. His hatred of all Muslims whether peace loving or extremists is well documented on this forum (I will never forget the “thank God I’m not married to a Muslim” post). If you listen to any intelligent, well balanced individual talking about these issues you will here nothing but an understanding that there are no good guys in this conflict. There is bloody minded intransigence on both sides driven by ultra nationalism, religious intolerance and historic conflict and those paying the price are totally innocent women and children on both sides, in their thousands. How you can condemn the murder of innocent people by Hamas terrorists but not condemn state murder carried out by the Israelis shows the same blinkered thinking that also labels people anti-Semitic when they are nothing of the sort. If things aren’t depressing enough, the world is in a mess, the Middle East is a tinder box and we send out our top diplomats, Rishi Sunak and James Cleverly. If there was a perfect example of how far the UK has sunk on the world stage, this is it.

Last night it was reported that the Israelis had hit a hospital in Gaza with the death toll in the many hundreds. Given that the Israelis have previous for bombing hospitals and that they are currently reducing vast swathes of Gaza to rubble there seemed no reason to disbelieve the reports. This morning we heard that it was the hospital car park that was hit and that it was possible that the damage could have been caused by a misfiring Hamas rocket. Clearly not as first reported then but the waters are being muddied from misinformation from both sides (perhaps the Israeli guy who said there is no crater should go to Specsavers). So the situation stands that we don’t know what happened with any certainty so we await further details. Seems a logical and mature way to deal with it. What is neither logical nor mature is to label anyone criticising the Israeli treatment of Palestinians over the years as anti-Semitic, as you do. Most people on this thread understand what is going on and what has been going on for decades, unlike you who have your colours firmly nailed to the Zionist mast and doesn’t seem to have a problem with women and children being murdered so long as they are Muslims.

Not if they are being supported by Iran and others. As Gandhi was supposed to have said, “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”. As horrendous as last weekends attack was, there is a much bigger game at stake here. Hamas and their enablers quite clearly want to destabilise the area and are looking to goad the Israeli’s into military action that will then escalate and potentially draw others into the conflict. I would assume the point of Biden’s meeting with the Israeli government is to try and hold them back from taking any action that will only result in more bloodshed and destruction. Most reasonable people understand that flattening Gaza is not the answer and will only cause more conflict. The Israeli’s are meant to have the best intelligence agencies in the world. Is it really beyond their capability to take out key Hamas targets without killing hundreds of innocent people in the process? It can’t be emphasised enough. The more women and children they murder, the more they are stoking up the hatred against them and the less chance their is for an eventual platform for working towards a peaceful settlement. If retaliation and retribution is all you can focus on, this will never end and could also end up with a far greater conflict than what we have already.

Is that all you have to say about it? Pretty much shows what kind of person you are (and those who think your post is funny). If that was Hamas blowing up an Israeli hospital would you be making pathetic jokes about it?

Hospital death toll now said to be 500. At what point does the death toll become “proportionate”?

Let’s hope that the situation is de-escalated quickly and a cease fire arranged so that we don’t have to put up with any more moronic, myopic, reactionary posts like this.

Better and more balanced speeches from both the PM and Starmer (especially Starmer) this afternoon in the House. Good to hear recognition that Hamas and not the Palestinians should be the focus of any blame, more emphasis about the humanitarian position for the innocent Palestinians in Gaza and that there is no place for hatred towards Jews or Muslims on our streets

Steve Bell has been sacked from The Guardian. For those who don’t know his work he is an excellent cartoonist and has been with the paper for 42 years. He provided a cartoon of Netanyahu wearing boxing gloves holding a scalpel and with a map of Gaza on his torso which he is poised to cut. The words above the cartoon say Residents of Gaza, get out of now. It is a reference to a similar cartoon that was used back in the 60’s about the Vietnam war using Lyndon Johnson with a map of Vietnam on his torso When asked why the cartoon had been withdrawn the explanation was something along the lines of, Jewish bloke, pound of flesh, antisemitic trope. According to Bell it has nothing to do with Shylock and the reference wouldn’t work in this context anyway. The whole point of the boxing gloves and the scalpel (so much for surgical strikes) has been completely ignored. It has absolutely nothing to do with a pound of flesh. I expect more from this newspaper but The Guardian in this instance is just as gutless as the rest right wing suck up press.

I don’t think there is any loathing of Israel in here. I don’t see any Palestinian fan boys either. Both comments are crass and helpful. I see plenty of people who appreciate that the situation is and has always been far from black and white. The provocation and retaliation has been going on and both sides are responsible for their actions and for the continuance of the murder of innocents and the destruction of property. Calling people Palestinian fan boys or anti-Semites when they recognise the basic fact that Israel is not the blameless victim here is the 6th form common room argument level post. To end this conflict BOTH sides have to recognise that the other has the right to a peaceful existence within agreed and well defined boundaries. The land grabs and the butchering has to end. Both sides bear responsibility here. Israel has all of the power and can destroy the Palestinian people’s with days of it wanted to. It is incumbent upon them to use their power responsively and proportionately. I think that most people can see that they are abusing their power at the moment, which is why sympathy levels are probably higher in many for the Palestinians. It has been pointed out many times that it is quite possible to be horrified and disgusted by the Hamas attacks on innocent civilians while also being horrified and disgusted at the murder of innocent Palestinians in Gaza. I can’t speak for everybody else but I would expect more people on this thread want an end to all of this and would like a 2 nation state with security guaranteed by the UN for both Israelis and Palestinians. Labelling people fanboys, anti-Semites and even c**ts falls into the same old one side good, the other side bad attitude that will only serve to add fuel to the already raging fire.

So perhaps Corbyn’s stance on the plight of the Palestinians was right all along? Those who used the anti-Semite label to shut him down should maybe rethink their position. Iran are ramping up their rhetoric and with Russian backing and the US firmly in the Israeli corner things could escalate fast unless cooler heads prevail. The Times columnist who said on Friday that we should all shut up and let Israel do what they want in retaliation for the Hamas attacks might want to reconsider what giving them a free hand in this could mean too. Yes, of course Israel has a right to defend itself. It doesn’t have the right to drag us all to the brink of a global war though. Hamas wanted this escalation all along and Netanyahu has played into their hands. The West needs to drop this blind standing by Israel stance and adopt a more neutral position. Pressure needs to be put on both sides to take a step back and instead of standing behind one or the other, the rest of the world through the auspices of the UN needs to be working to de-esculate rather than escalate the position.

What on earth are you talking about? I had already previously referenced the spike in anti-Semitic hate crimes in a previous post but I was specifically talking about the pro Palestinian yesterday. How did you manage to confuse the two? She might be short but she is gutsy. Her previous job was as a prison warden in Wandsworth nick. Like one or two others here you seem to be stuck in the 70’s. There are plenty of female police officers on the front line nowadays. If you made that comment to her face about cats up trees you’d end up wearing your testicles as a bow tie. Go and look at the news reports about the march. See anything about it all kicking off? 7 arrests amongst tens of thousands of people. Hardly a big deal was it? If you want to carry on playing silly buggers there are plenty of other threads that are more suitable. This is not the place for your childish WUMmery. https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/14/thousands-march-through-central-london-to-call-for-a-free-palestine