The9

Strange, as one of the things I was impressed by was the way we kept going all the way through even though little we tried came off.

They had only 2 more efforts on goal. The efforts they had were from better positions, but you still have to finish the chance, and they were clinical. Ifs and buts and all that, but Wanyama missing an easy header at 1-0 made a massive difference to how we set up in the second half, even if everything else stays the same and Liverpool get 3 before half time we almost certainly don't go to that game-chasing 3-5-2 when only one goal behind at half time. Happy to agree that Caulker standing off Sturridge when he miscontrolled it was just as important for the result in that context.

We do have more strength in depth as we have more alternatives. Last year's backups were mainly U21s who still aren't up to it. You're not really likely to see an improvement in a one-off when the player has had all of 3 days' training to build a partnership to play against a top 6 side with someone they haven't played alongside before. The point is still that our backups are probably ok in isolation against bottom half Prem clubs so we're less likely to have a single failure make us significantly worse in those games. Those backups are either just better than last season's backups, or we just have more options than last season. Against the top sides you still need all your best players on form to get a result, we didn't have that option last night. Alderweireld and Schneiderlin are excellent players that we can't hope to replace without spending the same amount they cost to buy, and we will have a drop off until the replacements step up. Again, that's the first XI, not the squad discussion. In terms of squad (and I'm ignoring players who played both last season and this) we now have either Romeu/Clasie as options replacing one player who left. RB we have the same backup options as last year plus Martina. CBs are a straight swap, and when Gardos is fit we'll have another (backup) option there. Same goes for GK. Going forward we've had Rodriguez back for 12 games already, and Juanmi and Ramirez have come in. Everything else is the same, the U21 options are no different, some of the other players who made the bench last season (and the season before) are out on loan getting experience and may or may not come back better, but they're still available to us.

I was not aware they should be giving us weekly updates on... erm... nothing much.

Fairly sure that was answered earlier in the thread. For those who left before the end, Lallana tried applauding those left in the Northam (Saints fans were still applauding the players and singing OWTS at this point), was met with a chorus of boos and "w@nker" chants, and shrugged like the bell-end he clearly is and went over to the Liverpool fans instead.

Stats show chances were pretty even, 12 to 14, but we had 3 on target compared to their 7. Obviously these include all kinds of "not really efforts on goal" and possibly blocks, but last night was a pretty good illustration of how the quality of chances impacts on your conversion percentage. Almost all their efforts were from players in space and with time to choose their finish, and Stekelenburg had little chance with any of them.

I saw Reed look like he was going to get sent off in every match and only get to tackles after the ball had gone, if that's what you mean? That was precisely the problem yesterday, they shifted the ball forward so quickly we couldn't prevent the ball being moved, and then with the weakness at the back from Caulker instead of Fonte alongside Van Dijk we didn't defend it well and they scored with most of their attacks. Pretty similar to the Everton game to be honest.

This is the argument for the starting XI being weaker, which everyone pretty much agrees on. Nothing to do with squad depth.

I might have expected him to MAYBE stop the one that went under him if he was lucky, and even then they'd have probably scored a rebound. The rest of them were just him being exposed and can't complain about his performance at all. I didn't think that at all - in fact our players were busting a gut late on to chase the game even though behind. Fitness had nothing to do with it (apart from Fonte's). We did so all match long - but when they pass to a midfielder in space from their box and any through ball dissects your defence it doesn't matter much. He'll leave in the summer - I thought he worked hard, not sure if that's a criticism of his workrate or a plaudit for being a class apart? We took them apart for 25 minutes. I can't explain how they were missing in the middle for balls from the back when we went to 3-5-2, but Steven Davis in particular was everywhere and there was plenty of hard work and closing down - Liverpool scored from shifting the ball quickly and in behind our poor defensive line, nothing else. I'd be surprised if anything in the data showed suggested playing 3-5-2 with Wanyama at CB was the smartest move, even when chasing a 2 goal deficit in a cup match at home. In patches. Apart from the 50% of them who went home before the end.

We still have a stronger squad than last year. Last night we didn't use them as effectively as we could have, especially in the second half. Formations and tactics not personnel. Caulker was a weak point but any defender who's been out of the team for months and playing alongside a new partner isn't going to do as well as a player with loads of experience with their partner - Van Dijk took a couple of games to gel with Fonte. Caulker isn't as good, but also given Fonte's injury wouldn't have had much practice with Van Dijk either, and it showed. We probably should have gone with the 2 DMs, but Koeman had already planned for resting Clasie and Cedric for this occasion and for some reason felt Clasie/Wanyama would work. You can't just expect people to slot in at the same level immediately when they're clearly backups and short of game time, you can only hope they don't do anything personally that is below par (ditto Yoshida). Romeu not being used much and then dropped in against Man City had the exact same problem, and he'd played alongside Wanyama plenty a few months back and looked comfortable.

Got in my throat and nearly stopped me booing Lovren and Lallana for a minute.

It might have been an idea to use another of the ones we already have.

Well, here's my summary: We were completely on top for 25 minutes and didn't take enough advantage - especially Wanyama's header straight at Bogdan at 1-0. They then scored, twice, against the run of play. Caulker was exposed by a lack of pressure on the ball in midfield, but made some poor positional decisions and unsurprisingly didn't have the kind of understanding with Van Dijk that we usually see because they've rarely, if ever, played a competitive match together. We probably should have played with 2 DMs in midfield to protect the back 4 better - aside from a couple of Clasie through balls the central midfield job seemed to be mostly defensive anyway - though Romeu and Wanyama were both ineffective on Saturday away to Man City. Even so, it didn't look to be a problem until they started finding space to pass behind Caulker. Liverpool's finishing was the main difference between the two sides. They scored all but one of the decent chances they had, and one came out of nowhere. The third goal (from 5 Liverpool efforts in the first half, one of which hit the scoreboard) tipped the game completely - leading to Koeman making an understandable but still weird decision to go 3-5-2. This showed little confidence that our usual supposedly defensive set up with one DM and Clasie was going to lead to us getting 2 goals back. Being charitable, you could say Koeman wanted to offer Liverpool a threat they weren't expecting. But this mainly had the effect of removing the overlapping options as the ball never got to the wing-backs, and forced Wanyama to play twice as many passes as usual in much riskier situations, without anyone to pass to in the middle of the park (even though theoretically there should have been at least 2 people there) and everything ended up with Stekelenburg which gave the ball back to Liverpool too often. Later on this went to something resembling a 3-4-3 which left Mane totally isolated out on the right wing. Meanwhile Liverpool just hoofed it and outpaced Caulker and Wanyama to score every time they broke. On the upside, the players on the pitch seemed to be giving everything even when well behind and I thought Steven Davis was very good at moving the ball on quickly and effectively, as well as working hard to close down and press. In fact I thought he did more pressing than everyone on the pitch except Mane and Lallana. We chased the game from 3-1 and got picked off - more about formations than performance.

I'd say 1) was more about Caulker than Fonte, and possibly more about how many DMs we play. 2) Difficult for anyone to just get dropped into a side at short notice, probably could do with more games and hasn't played alongside Van Dijk in a match before that I can recall. 3) All I saw was all three of them (especially Mane) busting a gut right to the end to try and make things happen 4) Don't know how you can make those assumptions when the entire team was out of position second half in a bid to pose unexpected problems and chase the game 5) Didn't see them do anything unexpected to be honest.

I pretty much agree with all of this, but there is a window of opportunity (rapidly diminishing) to sign players on higher wages than we normally do with the safety net of the new TV deal, but still pay less than those players' equivalents will be on once the TV money becomes an actual thing next season. I think Stoke have basically done it the summer gone, signing name players and knowing they get a year on the cheap compared to what happens when the entire squad wants a pay rise. Prem clubs will still be able to find value, and from increasingly better players across the board as they'll be able to outspend even top Europa League and middling CL clubs, but managing the way that wage hike takes place could be the key to (relative) success in the transition period before the new "post tv-deal" wage scales level off.

There isn't anyone currently in the U21s coming through (except maybe Reed) because they're all out trying to get match experience at other clubs, which I'd say would put them closer to the first team than an inexperienced U21 side which just got thrashed.

I'd take it as an indication that Fonte isn't starting. Which had already been said. Whether Cedric is starting will depend on whether he's injured (which he isn't, though he does have a cut on his head that it's beneficial to protect) or if Koeman is planning on having Mane in front of him and worried about leaving him exposed, which is the only tactical reason he's been reported as offering for playing Yoshida at right back so far.

It might be a pointless thing to boast, but it was pretty easy with Yoshida who made his first appearance in a 6-1 defeat (coming on after 28 minutes). FWIW none of the other 4 were actively bad on their debuts, though two of them had dodgy spells sooner or later in their first 6 months - as you'd expect. Yoshida has improved but not enough and still makes a lot of the same mistakes he made on that debut - on which he inexplicably hurtled past an Arsenal winger when the ball was out wide and opened up the whole side for attack. Martina was signed as short-term cover in July as he had some Europa experience and on Erwin's recommendation, I expect he's dirt cheap relatively speaking and unlike most of our signings I don't think he's ever been part of a bigger plan. He was bloody awful on his pre-season debut, like "never played professional football before" bad - but by the Arnhem game he knew the system and looked competent. He's not had the chance to prove his abilities one way or another since, unlike Yoshida. I'd rather we stuck with Cedric and stopped worrying about him being exposed by Mane when Mane's rarely the one in front of the RB anyway!

I was here long before him, and I love the way you change the subject when you know you don't have a response to the point.

Just watched MotD2 and suspect they will have Henderson and Sturridge starting as they came off the bench.

Nothing to worry about with Everton or Stoke, even though they've both beaten us at home the Stoke game is always close home and away, and Everton faced a side which wasn't close to our best team when they beat us 3-0 at St Mary's (Stekelenburg; Cedric, Fonte, Yoshida, Targett; Wanyama, Davis; Tadic, Mane, Long; Pelle). Beating City of course would be quite the ask. Let's get to where that's an issue first!

City absolutely stopped playing at 2 up until just after we scored. They were more than happy to sit and defend.

Also trying not to have any reason to like Lallana ahead of tomorrow.

I'm not going to bother playing it, but I'm very aware, having been there, that we were loud as hell without needing a bloody drum chorus, and they definitely turned the mic levels down from the boom in front of us when I watched it back due to the swears just before kick-off, after they'd had their "tv atmosphere" fix when the teams came out.

So what are they doing about Rodriguez's other foot then? Also interesting to think I have an "everything done is correct" agenda when Yoshida was starting...