The9

Just reread it, both England and Scotland are listed under their appropriate countries, mentioning both 3rd and 12th so either I skipped over it or they added it when they updated the other stuff.

Bloody BBC, can someone tweet them and mention that as well... Either that or I scan read the bit about England being 3rd because I sure as hell saw Scotland 12th...

PS, didn't need that last Redslo recap, was fine before the ambiguity and fine again now. Also Wigan going direct to group stages doesn't mean anything, THE FA Cup winners have ALWAYS had priority since the CW Cup got the boot and teams went into the UEFA Cup and then Europa League. The point was about teams who were in Europa League league qualification positions as well as being cup winners. Though as they've changed the qualifying rounds now it's probably moot anyway. Also, don't tell me there's no ambiguity and then say this: "that is the advantage of winning the FA Cup. The league cup winner's position is, normally, the lowest position of the three. I believe, but am not 100% certain, that if the FA Cup winner is in the CL, the it goes 5th, League Cup, 6th so that the sixth place club enters in the third play off round. Fortunately, that won't happen this year."

England are absolutely nowhere in the Fair Play League. I know this because the BBC told me Scotland are 12th, and it stands to reason that if any of the other home nations were closer they would have been mentioned.

Lallana might have held the ball up a bit better high up the pitch and maybe created a few chances from nothing but he certainly wouldn't have solved our shooting problem, and Lambert was a busted flush 6 months before we even sold him and would have spent all this season wondering why people kept passing the ball too far in front of him.

1) "Wafer cup" no longer exists and is now called the Europa League. 2) Your statement about 7th place is correct. UEFA changed the rules about cup runners up to take effect in this season's qualification for next season's competitions - that's what's on the link. 3) Your statement about Arsenal/Liverpool final is incorrect. If Arsenal or Liverpool are playing someone else in the Final (i.e Arsenal v Blackburn/Aston Villa or Liverpool v Reading) then the Cup Winner might not already have qualified for Europe, so they could take the European place. With an Arsenal v Liverpool final it is (nearly) guaranteed that they will both make Europe via other means anyway, so that "Cup Winner" spot either goes to the bottom league qualifier if Arsenal win (into Europa 3rd Qualifying Round) or to Liverpool as cup winner going into the Europa Group stages with the bottom league qualifier going into Europa 3rd Qualifying Round. It would be easier to say "Prem 6th" or "7th" but that actually depends on where Liverpool finish if they win the cup. My summary above covers all scenarios (other than Arsenal or Liverpool falling out of the top 7 as it's highly unlikely).

It was where I was a couple of weeks ago before noticing the anomaly two days ago. I think Steve's Cup Final examples, your clarification for a FAQ and my nice and easy every scenario posts, all of which (except yours) which can be pared down and struck-through as the FA Cup progresses and the CL/EL places firm up.

Yeah, that bit about 5th not making the Group stage is wrong. 5th will definitely make the EL group stage as will the FA Cup winner. Group stage places can only go to Prem 5th and FA Cup winner or Prem 5th and Prem 6th if FA Cup winner is in Champions League. No-one starts in the Play-off round any more, you have to have played in the 3rd Qualifying Round of the Champions League or the Europa League to get to that round.

Anyway, can we sticky my clarification post with a FAQ or something?

I never noticed. Though thinking about it... Middlesbrough in the UEFA Cup. Just assumed they got in as FA Cup runners up I guess...

Apparently they've changed the text on the BBC site, it's posted above.

Assuming the interpretation of the Europa League/FA Cup winners scenario above, based on the possible outcomes, these are the 3 options: 1) FA Cup winners (CW) finish in top 4 (i.e. Arsenal) N1, N2, N3 are Prem top 3, Champions League Group stage N4 is Prem 4th, Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round N5 is Prem 5th place, Europa League Group Stage N6 is Prem 6th place, Europa League Group Stage CW becomes a place for Prem 7th, Europa League 3rd Qualifying Round. 2) FA Cup winners (CW) finish outside top 4 but in top 7 (i.e. Liverpool) N1, N2, N3 are Prem top 3, Champions League Group stage N4 is Prem 4th, Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round CW (Liverpool) enters Europa League Group Stage (even if they come 7th in the League) N5 is highest Prem place outside the top 4 not occupied by Liverpool (either 5th or 6th), Europa League Group Stage N6 is next highest Prem place outside the top 4 not occupied by Liverpool (either 6th or 7th), Europa League 3rd Qualifying Round. 3) FA Cup winners (CW) are Villa, Blackburn or Reading N1, N2, N3 are Prem top 3, Champions League Group stage N4 is Prem 4th, Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round CW enters Europa League Group Stage N5 is Prem 5th place, Europa League Group Stage N6 is Prem 6th place, Europa League 3rd Qualifying Round. 7th place doesn't qualify for Europe.

Hang on a minute, doesn't the fact that the League rule specifies the "next position" mean that the team qualifying in the League Cup not-winners slot actually qualifies into the Group Stages of the Europa League ahead of the FA Cup not-winners slot? I mean it'll still be 5th/6th or 6th/7th or 5th/7th in that order, but technically that's right, just because the League Cup final is played earlier.

That'll be the N6 I mentioned earlier then, the lowest-ranked qualification position (the N1-N6 and CW designation looks a bit weird in England where there are two cup winners, one of which isn't "CW" but instead is N6 (which has now reverted to a League position anyway).). Presumably that's up to the national FA to decide where their representative comes from - and the League Cup has only recently got a Europa League place. As I've mentioned elsewhere, bloody good job all the English clubs are out of European competition already or we'd have the "winner qualifies for next year's" scenarios to consider too.

I suspect he nicked that from me as well, seeing as I raised it on here a few days ago.

It's not new, we've only NOT had a repayment scheme for a couple of years under Cortese when a bunch of Direct Debit defaulters from the post-admin period in 2009 presumably turned him into even more of a fan-diminishing fascist than he generally is/was.

Fair enough, I've rethought the logic and I don't disagree. The rule about FA Cup runners up generally has changed though, hence the confusion. They would have qualified for something if their opponent had already made Europe - though come to think of it, no idea if the FA Cup qualification used to take precedence over the Europa League positions before... it's only been in place since the Cup Winners' Cup got the boot, and I'm not sure it's been won by a team outside the CL places but inside the EL places in the interim.

I can see your point coming at it from that angle, but it does contain an ambiguity by stating that the Cup runners up qualify if the winners make the Champions League - but not stating what happens if they already make the Europa League. You appear to have nailed the underlying logic though, and I'm happy enough that it makes sense. Interesting that Liverpool could come 7th and win the FA Cup and get directly into the Group stages of the Europa League whilst Saints could come 6th and still have to play in the 3rd Qualifying round. What happened to Chelsea's League Cup winner qualification position? Does that take N6 if it's not a club from N1-N4 but disappear otherwise?

No, and that is precisely the point I'm making - it's the difference between 7th place needing Arsenal to win the FA Cup and 7th place needing either Arsenal or Liverpool to win the FA Cup. It's ambiguous and needs to be clarified by UEFA, preferably before the Cup semi-finals.

Except, as I pointed out on the other thread, the document we've all been taking as gospel (the one you've linked above) actually says if the national cup winner qualifies for the Champions League then the cup runners up don't get a European place. Which implies that if the (FA) Cup winner finishes 5th/6th then the cup runner up gets the place. Obviously if they come 7th they get the cup place for winning the cup as the top 6 take the other European slots. The thing about it "not coming in til next season" is DEFINITELY not true though, it specifically says that it amends this season's qualification rules in readiness for next season's competition.

It was a superb piece of finishing - and an even better piece of goalkeeping. Can't fault him for that one.

Not sure what relevance his father's death has, people react in different ways. It might have been motivational for him.

Strange to see so many having a pop at the wide players when its the lack of shots that's the main problem. And don't get me started on Pelle's insistence on making runs short of the near post where he has practically zero chance of scoring anyway.

Probably, but can't blame them for trying.

I saw this and thought "that's wrong" so I went back to the link above http://www.as.com/misc/circular_nuevo_formato_UCL.pdf - and if you read it again, it actually only says that the place doesn't go to the League rather than the cup runners-up in the event that the FA Cup winners qualify for the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE. Which is not the same as "if the cup winners qualify for Europe", as it means ONLY ARSENAL and not Liverpool have to win the FA Cup in order for 7th to be a Europa place. I'd really like this clarified...