bridge too far

I think that's often based on pragmatism. Men usually earn more than women and women sometimes are able to be full-time parents. I know, for example, that my son-in-law is a more natural parent than my daughter (although she's still a great mother). But, in a way, you've made the point about men bringing up children (whether gay or straight). Your work colleague, sadly, has no choice but to be the only parent. I'm sure, however, his children have plenty of contact with females as will EJ's child. I have a couple of gay friends, in a civil partnership, who would love to adopt a child. They'd make brilliant parents (even though they come from Portsmouth) - far better than some conventional couples. But I'm really not being PC about this matter. Oh, and Panda........ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/seahorse/superdads.html

There's a difference between HAVING to watch something and being FORCED to watch something. As I already said, I HAVE to watch it because I can't be bothered to watch the TV in the bedroom. He wouldn't dare FORCE me to watch it! More than his life's worth

But VFTT has just shown you that is has been acceptable to our society for many, many years. In any event, there is no way Sharia / Jewish courts would ever be able to override our legal system - they are just used for settling some civil disputes without having to resort to our courts. I'd imagine that any Muslim / Jewish person unhappy with a decision of their own court would just revert to our own legal system for adjudication.

I don't KNOW that they are - I''m just guessing they will. I know a few women with no 'natural' (I'm guessing you mean maternal?) instincts. Equally I know many men who are as good as any woman when it comes to caring for children.

What's that got to do with anything?

Lots of kids don't have mums for all sorts of reasons (divorce, desertion, death etc.) Lots of kids grow up with lesbian parents so don't have dads. It's not a biggie. And what about kids who have a mother and father and then that parent discovers that he or she is actually gay (the parent, not the child)? In any event, I'm sure they'll be employing a nanny so there'll be plenty of female attention.

As you have done eh? I think we should factor environmental issues into every conversation taking place on this thread But you make a fair point. You would hope people would check out the sources used by the supplier before they bought the stuff. I guess engineered wood recycles better than laminate once it's thrown out?

I think it's fine and not worth making a fuss about.

Just been mentioned on BBC South Today. But only to say that the club hasn't commented on the rumours.

A lot, if not most, suppliers source the products from sustainable forests. Our floors are oak and, AFAIK, oak grows in this country.

http://society.guardian.co.uk/pictures/image/0,9731,-11105354041,00.html

Have you thought about engineered wood instead of laminate? It looks so much nicer but it lays in the same way as laminate.

Traditional values my arse! I can't be bothered to go upstairs to watch something more eclectic and, anyway, I can sit and take the **** out the oaf Clarkson.

Some of us (well, me anyway) have to watch it because our other halves want to. He puts up with stuff I like to watch so vice versa.

Gary Moore - Thin Lizzy -HAS died

Clarkson is just a self-fulfilling prophesy. 'You think I'm an outspoken bigot, so I'll pander to your thoughts and become even more of an outspoken bigot'. He's just become a boring caricature of himself. Hammond has only one way of intoning when he's presenting - he does the same on that awful 'Total Wipeout' and I'm bored with him. James May is OK when he's doing his science / tech / boys toys stuff. My claim to fame - he was my ex daughter-in-law's flat mate. Wowee I hear you cry!

Do we encourage it, do you think, or are we innocent victims of it? Isn't there an element of herd mentality sometimes. I mean, I wouldn't choose to mix with a load of Skates (even though I live with one ) because they're 'different' (I am, of course, joking). Do some of our immigrants choose to live together because they feel unwelcome in what are perceived to be 'white' areas? Do some people avoid what they consider to be 'immigrant' areas? I don't know. I think we all need to listen to each other to see if we can't change some of these perceptions. We've a long history of trying to impose our values on others (viz. the Empire and colonies) and we still do it now in parts of the world. I think that's arrogant and probably earns us more enemies than friends. We're not always the ones in the right.

So it comes back to the question I asked earlier. What, exactly, are those values? Who defines them? I'm British born and bred, but maybe my values are different to yours. Who is to say what the values are that we should strive for? Some people might say that our values are based on Christianity. But who's to say that Christianity is right and everything else is wrong? And even Christians have differing views - I'm thinking of Catholics and abortion / contraception. So how do we decide what those British values are?

To some extent I agree with you - if ever I were to move abroad (unlikely) I'd want to learn the language and the customs. But - when I was working in Leicester a couple of years ago, I was delighted to be invited by my client to his family's Eid celebrations; many years ago I was flattered to be asked to go to an Indian wedding; a Polish girl who came to my aerobics class invited me to lunch where I had bigos for the first time.; my Jamaican midwife treated us to soul food, yams and collards and her brother taught me tile dancing.... And I love it - all the different cultures and customs in the mix that make the UK such an interesting place to live. How boring life would be without these delights. Crikey, if it weren't for a Portugese princess, we wouldn't have taken part in that quintessential British custom of tea drinking!

But it's always been so. Think of Jewish people in the East End of London or parts of Manchester, or Irish people in NW London. Just two examples of many. Of course people will gravitate to areas where there are people of similar origin and we'd do the same if we were to move abroad. But, once people have settled and got to know their way around, they often dissipate and become part of a wider community.

Define 'English'. Our country is populated by people with roots all over the world. My great-grandparents were Irish. Mr TF's family were originally from Belgium. Many English people descend from northern Europe (Angles, Saxons, Normans). We gave refuge to the Hugenots from France and the Jews from eastern Europe. That's what's so great about this country - it's a wonderful mix.

Oh dear - there wasn't room to list all the nationalities so I decided to focus on what I know as an example. And even more oh dear - if you'd read it properly you would have seen that I was citing the British Marriage Guidance service as an example of arbitration that is not governed by law (but used extensively in this country) - the same way as Sharia intervention in disputes about contracts is arbitration. I was not suggesting that Sharia law be used to settle matrimonial disputes FFS There is no way in a million years that the extreme elements of Sharia law would override our laws - don't believe everything you read in the Dail Heil.

Isn't it And here's an interesting comment from Trevor Phillips, Head of the Equalities Commission: Asked about the Top Gear row - which newspapers suggested could fall foul of the new Equality Act, Mr Phillips said: "I'm not going to get hot under the collar about schoolboy provocation which frankly is organised so that we can get into a ruck and sell more DVDs for Jeremy Clarkson - Jeremy is rich enough." He said the comments were "juvenile, it's vulgar, it's unacceptable" - but that was for broadcasters and columnists to argue about, it was not a matter for the law.

Owned by a girl, run by a girl - no wonder we're doing so well

And Cock-a-leekie! Waitrose does a great Goulash soup. I like Leek and Potato, Tomato with mascarpone, and Wild Mushroom. Damn - it's too early for lunch (