The Kraken

It's not just one Walsall player though. There is a clear history that they're paying out above average wages for the division (and lets remember that Portpin's and the PST's previous bids allowed for wages only in line with or below the league average). Lee Williamson turned down a deal with Sheffield United to go there. Brian Howard had overtures from Championship clubs but chose to go there (he just recently admitted there was a 3 year deal on the table from one club). Crawley's manager said “Contrary to what people have read or what they hear, I know from conversations I have had that some of the finances they are able to offer people are amazing.” So the whole "poor old Pompey, they're so broke and have got the smallest wage bill in the world" is IMO a myth, and birch is propping them up with bumper month to month deals. What happens when then transfers to standard contracts if/when they get taken over, well, we'll see.

Jimmy McGovern's dramatisation of Hillsborough. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf15PAPnAik Very moving and insightful, especially so at the time of production.

To your whole post; indeed, and agreed. to the last paragraph; half of my family call Liverpool their home, so I have a good deal of understanding around the subject. However, were that not to be the case, I'd certainly hope to display some more empathy to the situation than some of the more distateful and unnecessary comments I've seen on here. Quite what posesses some people to take up such a contrary yet attacking prose, I will truly never know. Thankfully such emotions are in the minority, and most rational people can rise above petty bickering to share in what is ultimately a rather poignant day.

Your first part, I don't agree with you saying the word "influenced". Perhaps a small difference, but I would say "strengthened" would be a better word. The doors were opened because of the bulk of fans (many of whom weren't overly drunk and/or aggressive) not being able to gain access to the stadium due to its dilapidated state and poor control. And the late arrival of fans was caused by a number of factors, including traffic, motorway accidents etc and not by a pre-organised desire by fans to arrive at the last minute to cause trouble (as had been reported in certain media at the time and since). Yes, we should all be responsible for our actions. Some of the Liverpool fans on the day should not be considered blameless; that is not the truth, and you're right to point that out. I'd like to see a decent balance of blame apportioned properly; I'm not sure that will entirely happen; but it is good that the balance has started to be redressed.

Heysel and Hillsborough were years apart. And probably attended by vastly different people. But then you know that, I'm sure. Alas, your constant determination to prove your point about the "Liverpool disease" leads you headlong into another foot-in-mouth saga where you only show your own ignorance rather than actually enter into any proper debate (whereby you might actually listen to and disseminate the opinion of the other side). In short, you'll pardon me if I consider you to be ignorant of the actual facts and, for some unknown reason, determined to portray a contrary yet controversial opinion. Again. As I alluded to earlier in this thread; just how would you feel if you had allowed your children to attend a football match with the same outcome as this? Would you perhaps act the same?

SulaimanAlfahim ‏@TheRealSulaiman @blueballoo2000 ... you are a lier Micah Hall ‏@blueballoo2000 @TheRealSulaiman that's the second time you have libelled me today. Don't go for a third. not Balram Chainrai ‏@notBaluChainrai @blueballoo2000 @TheRealSulaiman Go for the hat trick Sulaiman, back of the net! :lol:

Why not? Take out the emotion of the exact whys and wherefores of lives being lost, and it being football related. It was a disaster where 96 people lost their lives, and the very same supporters who did all they could to help the dead/dying were then portrayed by the police as the cause of their deaths. The police, led by certain high ranking officers, led a dedicated campaign to alleviate themselves of all blame. They lied, they doctored exisiting police statements to achieve their aims, and they purposefully lay the blame at the feet of the innocent. There is also the possibility that they obstructed the course of justice, and also perjured themselves. In light of that, I would ask why you think they shouldn't be brought to justice and held accountable for those actions?

I don't think it would take £100M to get them back down to League 2. Am I missing the point?

MacKenzie is the current devil incarnate; that will soon move on. The police at the time are of course as you say the true villans, and their time will come when they will finally be held to account. I don't share your view that the British justice system is a hero; just the opposite, in fact. Its the very same justice system that has taken 23 years to finally arrive where we are, which is not justice in itself (yet). It has provided a sham of an enquiry and refused or whitewashed various attempts to get the case reopened and bring the perpetrators to justice. The only heroes here are the campaigners for all of their tireless work to get where we are today.

Perhaps. But his decision to publish the story in the manner in which he did, and the reprehensible way in which he has since acted and consistently refused to backtrack or properly apologise (especially in light of the Taylor Report which completely rejected The Sun's story) tells me that the witch hunt is entirely justified. He liked sensational headlines, he published one, it was absolutely wrong, and its taken him 23 years to finally apologise for it.

I'm with VFTT. The actual truth has been out there for long enough, for those who actually want to see it. Some will even still deny it, I'm sure.

Actually, they did. Other corners of the media also pinned the blame for the disaster at least partly on Liverpool fans, including the Daily Star, which ran the front page headline "Dead Fans Robbed By Drunk Thugs" on 18 April 1989. The Sheffield Star published allegations similar to those in The Sun, running the headline "Fans In Drunken Attacks On Police", and the Liverpool Daily Post published an article entitled "I Blame the Yobs".

A wonderful question, DD. I'm still ashamed when friends I'm with buy that tawdry rag, there are so many reasons not to read it. Unfortunately its a paper that appeals to the lowest common denominator, many of whom don't know any better.

Also his insistence to carry on refusing to atone for his error is striking:

Not really, no. In their history of The Sun, Peter Chippendale and Chris Horrie wrote:

And what a pile of tripe that apology was; such a weak deflection of the blame and responsibility. On Question Time a few years back (2007 I believe) he was asked if he would like to apologise about anything related to the coverage of Hillsborough. His response: "I wasn't sorry then and I'm not sorry now". I think he may need police protection for a while now this has all come out, he's currently public enemy number one.

CGI-tastic.

Good summary LD Still in this thread there are people blaming widescale drunkenness, ticketlessness and other such rebuffed theories. A little learning goes a long way.

There already is an acceptance of that. Taylor's report laid the majority of the blame at the police, both inside and outside the ground, but mentioned that "the presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem."

Perhaps you should read the Interim Taylor Report which goes into all sorts of details. Including why there was a crush outside. Its not a long document, and the full facts are summarised in just a few short pages. Some of the ignorance in this thread is astounding.

Its not largely pointless at all. It's the relatives' thirst for actual fact and information that has led to this. Sources to the Home Office are already stating that the news that comes out will be "monumental". The fact the information is coming out should be thoroughly applauded. That David Cameron is being tipped to make an apology (at 12.30) suggests this goes all the way to Number 10.

Wow. I find that attitude, from a parent, staggering really. The release of information has been orchestrated by the families; lets not ever get away from that. And they want access to the documented answers; in some cases which will be "how and when did my child die". Other information will come out which will engender a blame culture, but the families request for information is at the heart of everything. The coroner at the time stated that all 94 who died on the day had either died before 3.15pm, or had received such injuries by then that they would have died anyway. As such, no investigation to what happened after 3.15 was allowed, and no documents released. This despite various reports that people were still being resucitated well after that 3.15pm cutoff, and that all ambulances were being refused entry to the stricken fans by police. There was also a massive cover-up by the police; an absolutely enormous travesty of justice. This absolutely needs to be addressed; never mind lessons learnt etc, this was a national and international cover-up that went all the way to Downing Street, and that should have repercussions. You may not have any empathy with scousers, and admittedly they often don't help themselves, but I'd have thought you'd have had some empathy with parents who've lost their children and have been lied to for over 20 years about the exact circumstances.

We have the players to do it, they just don't seem to want to do it. Our tactics are to pass it around a little in the middle around the halfway line, get it out to the wide man then don't bother to go looking for a return pass, just look to bomb on into the box. Mindless rubbish.

Frank Lampard has scored every penalty he has taken for Chelsea that he has hit down the middle. http://www.thechels.co.uk/frank-lampard-and-the-art-of-the-penalty-kick/

Ukraine manager apologising to Roy for the sending off.