The Kraken

As I said. Until I hear from the chairman that his plans have accelerated and the club are going to increase the stadium capacity, I'm going to assume it won't happen yet. If someone says its "far too early to think about doing it yet", my assumption is that he doesn't mean he's going to start within the next 15 months. You clearly feel differently, and as I said, you carry on, I'm not going to try to change your mind. I'd appreciate it if you'd also do me the same courtesy; I've made my position very clear and I find your hypothesising in the face of evidence to the contrary all rather pointless. Please consider this my last comment on the matter with you.

Until I hear from the chairman that his plans have accelerated and the club are going to increase the stadium capacity, I'm going to assume it won't happen yet. But if you want to carry on believing that the club should and will install another 10K of seats right now, please be my guest.

God almighty MLG, let it go. The link you provided to Cortese's interview has already demonstrated that the club are considering a whole range of things for the future, that may or may not involve increasing the capacity of St. Mary's, or may or may not involve relocation to a new stadium. And, in Cortese's own words, its far too early to think about doing them right now. I really don't know what more there is to discuss on that matter. You have the words of the chairman and what he intends to do. End of story.

Sunderland played at Roker Park mate....

The simplest solution to this is to do what they did a few years back; have a bottle bar separate to the main bar. I think it was £3 for a half litre bottle of lager (Carlsberg, so not great but better than nothing). Hardly any queues at all for it.

Oh dear me. A blatant refusal to look facts in the face! Cortese has said (in that very interview above) that they are looking at plans for a whole host of things. They are planning for "what if" scenarios. And he'd be silly not to. I imagine he has commissioned many studies into how the stadium COULD be increased. How we could go from 32K to 36K, from 32K to 40K, and from 32K to 45K. He's also probably looked at the potential for a new stadium. Just because he's looking at how it COULD happen, it really doesn't mean it WILL happen. It's called a feasibility study.

Yeah, you're right. I imagine in one year, having achieved exactly what he had planned to achieve, he'd want to accelerate the process tenfold. Give it up; you're the only one clinging on to this ridiculous notion. Yes, there are plans to increase thye stadium capacity if necessary. But it won't be done for a long time.

Maybe you should have a good listen to what he actually says in that, if you think he's advocating your belief that we should be developing the stadium right now. Firstly he says that there were immediate plans for the stadium which involved making it more consumer friendly, such as getting beer into the hands of customers quicker. he then goes on to very clearly state that there is a bigger picture to be seen from the potential of whether to expand, but that it is far too early to talk about it right now. His words. Its far to early to do anything apart from just talk about it right now. He goes on to say they will consider all options, whether its an increase of St. Mary's or a new location, but reiterates that its far too early to do anything but talk about it now.

Out of interest, can you provide a link to exactly what Cortese is supposed to have said on the matter of a 45K stadium?

Thanks, that's what I thought you were advocating. My summary is that building a 45K stadium right now is the height of foolishness; using evidence of being able to sustain average crowds of 30K is even more foolhardy. If Cortese has the business brain we all think/hope he has, I can only pray he doesn't subscribe to your logic. I hope he will wait until we get to the premier League first. I then hope he will monitor season ticket sales and match ticket sales and make an informed decision on stadium enhancement from then.

Not really, as I edited my post. You weren't clear. Do you believe Saints should be extending the stadium now to this 45k figure you mention, so its ready in time for when we get to the Premier League? If not, when should we extend the stadium.

As I've previously said; talks. Please answer the question above; I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you're advocating here. Edit; that didn't really answer the question. Do you believe the club should be developing the stadium right now? Based on evidence that we can achieve crowds of 30K.

MLG; please answer this question. Do you believe Saints should be increasing stadium capacity now so that we have a larger stadium in time for kick off when we reach the Premier League? It seems to be that this is what you are suggesting. Or do you believe (as pretty much everyone else seems to) that the owners are playing a waiting game of "lets get to the Premier League, see what sustained levels our support can possibly get to, and make an informed decision from that?

Exactly. MLG fails to grasp the concept that if the evidence were there for a need for a bigger stadium, plans would be in place to make that happen right now. We have a 5 year plan to get to the Premier League, with MLG's "logic" building works would be commencing now to ensure we have a 45k stadium to play in as soon as we get there.

You seem to dismiss certain facts and instead provide complete speculation and hypothesis of your own. You refer to games selling out long in advance yet offer no evidence to back up your claims. You say "many" fans were unable to get a ticket yet provide no indication of how many. And then you pluck a potential figure of 45K fans turning up to watch Man Utd. You say that we only failed to sell out for a quarter of the least attractive games. First of all, without being in posession of the exact figures I would suggest it was more than that we didn't sell out for. The 25% figure referred to the number of games that dipped below 30K. Here’s the figures I previously provided. In 2001/02 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half). In 2002/03 we had 6 home league games with less than 31K (that's just about onethird). In 2003/04 we had 1 home league game with less than 31K. In 2004/05 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half). Now it’s impossible to tell from those figures whether the attendance was diminished through the away team not filling their allocation, or whether they had a smaller allocation but we couldn’t sell the home allocation. But the signs don’timmediately look good. And we have the 25% of games figure where the attendance was below 30K. As for your last post; of course the stadium expansion issue is complex. But if the evidence is indeed there that we need a bigger ground, and if it takes a lot of time and planning to get it sorted, I'm wondering why we have not started this by now so that by the time we get to the Premier League within our 5 year plan we can maximise revenues from those 45K crowds you talk about straight away. I have had a consistent approach throughout this thread, but I'll repeat it for you. If we get back to the Premier League, and if we're selling out week in week out, then that will be evidence for an increase in capacity. Until then, I think we've got bigger fish to fry trying to sell out our current stadium. Now I know you have an overwhelming desire to be seen to right about anything and everything. But in this case, I simply do not believe that there is any worthwhile evidence for the club to proceed in any substantial manner towards achieving a higher capacity of stadium (beyond actually talking about the fact that they're not ruling it out). Not yet. It may well happen in the future, I’m not for a minute saying it won't happen, but I think if the club have any sense whatsoever they will gauge supporter levels only when we get back to the Premier League, and then over a period of at a bare minimum of 2 or 3 years.

Of course I don't haave the ticketing database. I am going by the evidence to hand, which shows that we have failed to sell out the home allocation on many times even when at our peak. And I think you must have difficulties in reading what I've previously said if you think I've said we would never sell more than 32k. I have never said that. What I have said is this. There is plenty of evidence to show that we couldn't sell out the home allocation in previous years. I'm not going to go back over the figures I've previously provided, but they show a very significant proportion of games did not sell out. I've also said that the most season tickets we have sold is 23k. So there has never been a waiting list and plenty of fans of who cannot get an ST. I have also previously said that, for the big games, we definitely could have sold more than 32K. However, I have clarified that and said that any assessment of how many more tickets we could sell is purely hypothetical. And (I've previously said this so I'm continually going over old ground) I think it is telling that some people have come into this thread and explained that they live far away, but on the occasions they came back to try to see a game they very rarely had problems in getting a ticket. If the evidence does exist, I would ask why the club are not already expanding the stadium in line with their 5 year plan. We're upgrading the training ground, after all. A stadium expansion would likely take 1 or 2 years, so it would fit in with our timescale to start building now.

I don't doubt for a minute that Cortese will have investigated the possibilities of a capacity increase or stadium move, and he'd be utterly stupid to come out and say "we're ruling out the possibility of a bigger stadium". He's the owner and will want to know what the potential future scenarios could be. But that's not what I'm talking about. It simply makes no logical or business sense to increase our capacity until there is evidence that there is the demand to fill such a new stadium. And despite what you want to believe, we have not seen that evidence in our past, and it doesn't look like we're going to see it in the next year at least. Until then, a stadium increase is just talk.

Where has Cortese said this? And the "evidence" that I have, I have already provided you with earlier in this thread. We did not have season ticket sales above 23K, fact. Over a 4 year period in the Premier League we did not sell out a very significant number of games, fact.

I'm not forgetting Hampshire's size; I just don't think its entirely relevant given the geographical size of the county. You can drive 40 or 50 miles north of Southampton and still be in the county. But people born and raised in Basingstoke, Fleet etc simply are not going to have the same affinity to Saints as those from Southampton; in fact, Basingstoke and Fleet are closer to Reading than they are to us. And we also (unfortunately) share Hampshire with another Championship club. You say that a 10K expansion is "realistic", but I'm not sure what you're basing this on other than a gut feeling. There is simply no evidence to support a claim that, at our Premier League peak in 2003 there were around 10,000 who couldn't get a ticket for games. Or that this would happen if we were to reach the Premier League again. I'm not saying it won't happen in the future, as no-one can predict that. What I am saying is that its entirely pointless starting some form of clamour for a bigger ground right now, or as soon as we get back to the Premier League. First of all we have to get there; until we do our current stadium is too big for us. Then we will need to display over a period of a very minimum of 2 or 3 years that we are selling out the home allocation for just about every game. Then we need to have some form of accurate assessment of just how many customers are unable to get a ticket if they want one. Until we have a waiting list for season tickets and thousands of customers shut out every week, its a redundant exercise. We are nowhere near that mark at the moment; at best we're 4 or 5 years away from it. Which is why I think talk of a bigger stadium is fantastically premature.

You only have to look at the early posts of the like of #22 and #24 to see that some are calling for a bigger stadium for as soon as we get back to the Premier League. Granted that's not immediately now, but the inference is that the club should be putting plans in place right now so that a bigger stadium is ready for us as soon as we achieve promotion. And this from #41.

If there is a business case to support such a late launch of the home kit, I have no idea what it is. Particularly as the club got it pretty much spot on last year, and last year's launch date was mid-June. Yes, anticipation is increased a bit by a late launch; but this is a Saints shirt, its not as if thousands of people are going absoloutely stir crazy just because they can't buy it yet. It's a very odd decision to not get the shirt out there right now.

Have you actually read what has been said? No-one is saying its an impossibility in the future. But there is absolutely no evidence on past and current figures to suggest we need a stadium increase now. There's not even enough of a motive to start planning for it now, if you have a modicum of sense. As you say, Cortese has business sense. Of course he will investigate the possibility of expansion, he'd be stupid not to. Thankfully what he won't do is ignore all current evidence to suggest how big we are as a club in favour of spending millions of pounds on extra seats that we don't need right now, or in the immediate future. No-one can predict what will happen in 5 years time. We may be challenging near the top of the Premier League. We may still be in the Championship. But the fact remains; until we have had a few years of consistently proving we are far too big for our current stadium, the football club will thankfully not pander to the egotistical nonsense of a handful of fans who think we're bigger than we actually are.

Another quote from Wikipedia for you: "Liverpool is a city and metropolitan borough of Merseyside,England, along the eastern side of the Mersey Estuary. As of 2001 Liverpool had a population of 435,500, and lies at the centre of the wider Liverpool UrbanArea, which had a population of 816,216. Southampton has a city population of 234,000 and an urban population of 304,400."

I'll have a go Tel, although I feel I'm going over old ground here. Firstly, it's not a "pessimistic" view. I don't believe anyone is saying that we will never need to expand the ground. If people were indeed saying "we will never outgrow our current stadium", then that could probably be seen as pessismistic. However, the reality of the situation is that there is currently no evidence to suggest that at any point in our history, our present, or our near future we will consistently need an expanded stadium. Some posters on here are pointing to statistics from 8 years ago and suggesting that they already demonstrate a need for a bigger stadium. The evidence that needs to be shown for a bigger stadium are: A season-ticket level above 25K or 26K. A sell-out of home tickets for every single game. A large contingent of ticket applications after games have sold out. There is simply no arguing the fact that we have never filled those criteria. Could we in the future? It's completely hypothetical, and I don't think that anyone denies that for the very big games we could probably see crowds of at least 35K, and perhaps even higher. How high the crowd could go is, as I say, completely hypothetical. What isn't hypothetical is that, per the 3 main criteria I outlined above, se haven't yet come close to fulfilling them. Our season ticket sales peaked at (from memory) around 23K. We sold out the home allocation of a number of games, but there were also a considerable amount of games when we clearly didn't. And there is certainly no evidence to suggest that there were thousands of people who wanted to but couldn't get a ticket for the bigger games. In fact even people who live away/abroad have commented that they rarely failed to get a ticket for the bigger games, which perhaps suggests that our capacity may well just be about right. So until we sell out the ground every game over a consistent period of 3, 4 maybe 5 years, raise our season ticket level and see many people locked out of games, talk of the need for a bigger stadium is completely premature. But again, historical evidence shows that if we cannot sell out a 32,000 seater stadium for a very significant amount of games the need for a bigger stadium just for a handful of "bigger" games is questionable, given the massive financial outlay it would require. And I find the comparisons with climbing Everest completely bizarre.

The way I understand stadium expansion at St. Mary's is this; the Itchen stand cannot be redeveloped. The Northam and Chapel stands can have 4,000 extra seats added to them. the Kingsland can have 8,000 seats added. So the choices would be either add 4K behind one of the goals to go to 36K or add 8K on the side and go to 40K. I think this thread is rumbling on and perhaps some are missing each other's view point. I don't think anyone is predicting that we will never, ever need to consider a stadium capacity increase. 10, 20 years is a long time in football; we've all seen how our fortunes have dramatically changed in the past 8 years since we were flying high and at an FA Cup final. However, I think (or certainly what I was trying to convey) we and the owners will want to see a few years of sustained sell-outs in the Premier League before considering a stadium increase. Cortese is a businessman and won't be looking to increase the stadium just on a vanity exercise or **** measuring competition. So I think, for now, talk of a capacity increase at St Marys is fanatastically premature. First we have to get to the Premier League. Then we would have to show at least 4 or 5 years of sustained capacity crowds, with a high level of season ticket sales.If/when we do get back to the Premier League I imagine Cortese will be looking very carefully at a number of factors, including: What is our average home attendance; are we consistently selling out of home tickets pretty much every single week (even against the lower ranked teams)? If we are selling out, how many enquiries for tickets are we receiving after the sold out date? What is the level of season tickets sold? Persoanlly, I think we'll only ever increase the capacity if a number of factors are met: If we sell out the home allocation every single week (not 3/4 of the time, every single week for 2 or 3 seasons running). If we seem to be receiving hundreds, thousands of ticket enquiries after tickets have sold out. If our level of season tickets sold reaches 25K or 26K. From past history we clearly haven't ever reached those levels, which is why it is extremely premature to contemplate an expansion right now. 5 or 10 years time, who knows? But until we hit those years of sustained evidence for a need for a bigger ground, we have one perfectly suited to our needs right now.