The Kraken

Sorry, but that makes very little sense to me. If the club were going to advertise externallly for season tickets then they would have started when they first went on sale. Why is there "no point" in advertising until 30th June? Season tickets have been on sale to both existing and new customers from 1st June. It would have made much more sense to advertise before now, as you can target new and existing customers in one advertising campaign. Waiting a month to target new customers and thereby ignoring dismissing existing customers makes no business sense at all as you are missing the majority of your target market.

Unfortunately John, I think this statement is going to be a common theme this season. The club just seem to currently have a refusal to communicate properly with their customers. It was true of their reasons for ditching the installment plan. It was true of their reasons for not offering half-season tickets. It was true of their decision to start charging a ticket booking charge. And it is true with the lack of renewal forms. I think we just have to get used to the fact that the club is "Cortese's baby" and he is going to run it his way, and his way alone. If that involves p!ssing off previous customers in favour of a new business model then, apparently, so be it.

I think you're getting confused between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Tax avoidance is perfectly legal and involves utilising the law to one's advantage to reduce the tax burden. Tax evasion is the illegal avoidance of tax, punishable by law. Besides, you're using a ridiculous generalisation; "rich people evade paying tax", suggesting they don't pay any tax at all. Of course they use every (legal) trick in the book to bring their tax bill down as much as possible, but there's no way around the fact that they still have to pay extremely significant tax sums. And it's not just extremely rich people that do this at all; your average guy on the street will employ all sorts of tax avoidance schemes, just to a less significant scale. As a business owner myself I utilise an accountant whose responsibility it is to reduce the company's and my personal tax burdens as much as the legal system will allow. This doesn't mean I don't pay tax, just slightly less than I perhaps could.

Yes. And I worked you out. All of the Palace fans I know seem genuinely happy that Burley has been appointed. They say that, after having to put up with the general malaise of Warnock's persona and more importantly his appalingly basic football tactics, anything that Burley will bring to the table is a breath of fresh air. I actually think that if he is halfway interested in the job he'll do a decent job for them. Assuming he doesn't have to sell of the best players of course.

You see, I've never got this argument. It's such an easy thing to say "tax the rich, they can afford it". There's a quote from TV show The West Wing which I think sums its up quite well.. "Henry, last fall, every time your boss got on the stump and said, "It’s time for the rich to pay their fair share," I hid under a couch and changed my name. I left Gage Whitney making $400,000 a year, which means I paid 27 times the national average in income tax. I paid my fair share, and the fair share of 26 other people. And I’m happy to, because that’s the only way it’s gonna work. And it’s in my best interest that everybody be able to go to schools and drive on roads. But I don’t get 27 votes on Election Day. The fire department doesn’t come to my house 27 times faster and the water doesn’t come out of my faucet 27 times hotter. The top one percent of wage earners in this country pay for 22 percent of this country. Let’s not call them names while they’re doing it, is all I’m saying." To suggest the "stupidly rich", as you put it, aren't already being massively taxed and doing their fair share is just not true.

I do agree with this. While I very much agree with the sentiment that it's very disappointing the club seem to have cut right back on communication with the fans, and that they absolutely should have sent out renewals, to suggest that its almost impossible for those without internet access to be able to work out that they have to renew is way over the top. What did people do in the past before the boom of the internet? I think even those without internet access are savvy enough to realise that if they haven't got their renewal forms yet, when they renewed before this time last year, they just might either speak to friends who do know what's going on or actually call the club and find out.

I get the feeling that the fans forum will either not happen, or will be a massively watered down version of previous years. For some reason the club have decided to become much more introspective in the way they operate and seem far more unwilling to answer direct questions and concerns from their customers. The sudden retraction and lack of a public statement for the installment plan, the new ticket levy, the ditching of the half season tickets; all of these deserve a much better explanation than we've been given. Yet the club have steadfastedly refuse to elaborate on their extremely limited statements given. Given that I just can't see NC putting himself in the firing line to answer some tough questions; especially when he is obviously unwilling to issue a statement on behalf of the club addressing these concerns.

I bought mine on Thursday and some people were getting names/numbers printed then.

I for one welcome the fact that all of our transfer dealings are done behind closed doors and only announced when they are actually concluded. Yes, we need players. But I'm more than confident, despite the lack of any press releases to confirm it, that the club are doing all they need to do to get AP the players he wants.

That's very true Nick, and I'm one of them. It doesn't mean that we can't ask genuine questions of the club's actions though; the two are not mutually exclusive.

Really? Burley hardly ever moved from his standing position in the technical area, waving his arms around continually. I always thought he was not sat in the dugout enough where he could actually think some tactics through, rather than continually standing by the sidelines using the same old arm movements which I'm sure the players must have soon learned to just ignore as they offered no new insight apart from "try harder". As for "getting rid of players on the cheap", I'm pretty sure it wasn't Burley who set the price for departing players. And one thing that Lowe certainly can't be criticised for is holding out for top value for players leaving the club. Even the prices we got for players in the Wilde/Crouch madness were very reasonable.

Fair enough point, but it's much less of an issue next year. If people assume that the installment plan is not going to be there then they still have months to save up to pay up front by July. Its the lack of notice that has caught out many this year. What I consider most worrying is that, despite having surely received many complaints about the sudden shelving of the installment plan, the club have still not formally commented publicly on the matter. If the club are going to promote themselves through the medium of a fans charter and then choose to re-write certain sections of that document just months later, I think we (the customers) deserve a little more explanation than "it costs too much, end of".

OK, before I start I will confess that this is a complete "mate of mate" story and I have absolutely no idea if it's true or not. But I've been told that the away shirt is a very dark grey (almost black) with slightly lighter grey stripes. There we go.

Badger supports Sheffield Wednesday.

Depends if his heart is in the job, IMO. First full season I quite enjoyed watching "his" team at times, the playoff push was mixes of joy and sincere frustration but we did look a good team on quite a few occasions (though other times we looked pretty shocking). Final season he looked like he couldn't care less and neither did his players. If Palace get "that" Burley, they're doomed.

Jay-Z was indeed a cracker; nice little cameo from Kanye for just one track as well! Orbital on Saturday night and The Courteeners on Sunday afternoon were other highlights for me.

Maybe something like this then...

I think Paul McCartney may indeed be God; such a great set. My hangover is a disgrace though.

Really like it. I've been waiting for Saints to bring out a white kit for ages so I can wear it for 5 a side, so this one will be going on the shopping list.

First of all, it doesn't really matter if it's the Trust or this site that gets the club to engage. My point is, the club sees the Trust exactly as we do, a moribund association that is being held up by a handful of people. Therefore by not acceding to the Trust's wishes for a meeting, they're effectively denying a meeting in the same way as if I alone emailed in and asked for 30 minutes of Cortese's time. Go back 18 months or so though, when the Trust did have its 800 or so members, then they were a proper fans association which perhaps may well have been able to put more pressure on, but now they no longer can. Or SISA for that matter. As for your question about whether I have contacted the Echo; sadly (on my behalf), yes I have. On the issue of the Trust I have contacted them on a number of times asking for clarification on why they continue to quote "Trust chairman" and not "Nick Illingworth" when they know they are a dead organisation. I've furthermore asked the same question of your mate Danny on this site, but have had no response from either. Sad I know, but there you are.

I'll refer you to the very first post on this thread. "It is a distinct possibility that Saints Web Forum is the largest paid membership unofficial fans 'thing' that Southampton FC has. We obviously represent a wide snapshot of the opinions of the fanbase and as such could be seen as being better served then an organisation like the Saints Trust to represent fan opinion." For what Illingsworth has done on this issue, I agree with his stance to try and get the club to comment. However, I've personally disagreed with a number of comments that have been made by "The Trust" in the past. The club know that The Trust are made up of a very small number of people and therefore, as a pressure group of sorts, they are completely powerless. Having the backing of hundreds/thousands of fans behind you however changes the issue. I'd prefer to have a situation whereby I didn't feel the club needed to be questioned over every decision they make. That said, I also don't agree that the customers should not be able to hold the club to account over broken promises. And whether you agree with it or not, quite a few people on here have disagreed with the way the club have bypassed their Fans Charter in the past few weeks, and as yet we've had no proper explanation from the club as to why. If the forum's influence can be used to extract an answer in this situation then I think it can only be a good thing, so long as it is done in the right way.

Its not for communication with the club though; its for communication with the press (ie The Echo). It's all well and good "The Saints Trust" asking, through the Echo, for a meeting with the club but the club know full well that The Trust doesn't exist apart from two individuals. The Echo putting pressure on the club with however many potential hundreds/thousands in a poll from here is, however, completely different and actually starts to give some credibility to a supposed groundswell of opinion. There doesn't need to be a 100% consensus so long as it is explained, for example, "of 968 people polled on the Saints Forum, 79% said that they believed the club had acted poorly in cancelling the ST payment scheme with no notice, and should make a comment explaining their decision". OK, the figures are made up of course, but you get the idea.

To add to what Colin has responded with; the forum also has the facility for obtaining, in a short space of time, a poll on any given issue. The spokesperson can then give accurate figures in terms of percentages and number of people polled on any particular subject. It doesn't need to be siding for one particular argument, just reflective of a significant amount of opinions.

Exactly right. This is what I said on the other thread... It all depends on who the "elected" person is as to whether it would work or not. When making press comments Illingsworth very rarely expresses his views as just his own, and McFeat is even more forthright in proclaiming what the entire Trust are feeling at any given time. Quite how they would know is anyone's guess but there they are speaking apparently for close on 1000 members However, without wishing to shine a light up his @rse, Steve Grant's comments in the Echo always seem to come across as very balanced, and are usually expressed as a personal view even though he appears in print as a moderator of the forum. Whether Steve would actually want the role of forum spokesman is another matter altogether, but I for one would welcome it in place of the current arrangement of rent-a-quotes who claim to speak for all their members but in actuality only speak for themselves. I think the role can work, but the spokesperson has to ensure that they do not try to suggest what the majority of forum members are thinking, but simply raise a concern that a sizeable amount of people have raised certain objections to something. You'll never get a common consensus on anything and therefore should never claim to do so. But a comment along the lines of "a large number of people have, through the forum, expressed sincere disappointment at the lack of consultancy and notice prior to the announcement by the club to scrap the payment plan" is factual and should offend no-one.

I posted on the other thread, but would be more than happy to see this happen, Steve always gives a very balanced view. And if it keeps professional gobsh!tes Illingsworth and McFeat away from speaking for "nearly a thousand Saints fans", all the better.