moonraker

The parliamentary Labour Party want to change the leader, if he wont go voluntarily a General Election will certainly see his demise. Conversely there may well be many who are not prepared to risk their seats for their principles. My judgement is they will go for a General Election it will also delay Article 50.

My country has lost and time will prove you wrong

Shut up you part three tw*t, you bore for England

I am very disappointed, but recognise the result and now desperately want to see some real leadership to ensure we execute our withdrawal for the EU effectively and honourably. I am a glass half full person and while this result saddens me it provides an opportunity to re-energise politics and increase engagement and participation. The hard part has just begun and delivering the benefits of Brexit will be watched closely. The euphoria of gaining independence for the United Kingdom may well presage the break up of the United Kingdom as Scotland voted unanimously to Remain and will I believe leave the Union. Cameron is rightly being challenged on his failure to deliver a remain vote and will resign, but in my view it Corbyn who should shoulder the most blame and resign. Corbyn has been an apathetic participant in the campaign, it is the Labour Heartlands that have delivered on a Right Wing policy and he should resign. Finally whilst we have had some impassioned exchanges and penned the odd insult I have enjoyed the debate on here. There have been some thought provoking and heartfelt arguments from both sides and if that can be magnified across politics in general around the country that can only be a good thing for democracy.

The real hurdle they will have to clear is that of being Right Wing. Working class voters are in the main only interested in UKIP becuase of immigration, their other policies, such as they are, will not attract suffiecient traditional left of centre voters to have any chance of electroral success in FPTP system. They are a one policy party in the eyes of much of the electorate, a policy that is unworkable, that leave has admitted is unlikely to curb immigration signifcantly.

You are right, the Governemnt are not constitutionaly bound by referedums, however if they choose to ignore the outcome we would really see the sparks flying.

A fair point, but could you answer my question.

Have you listened to it, what in his lecture is untrue, false, or in any other way deceptive? The leave line of insinuating that any one with a link to the EU, Big Business or some other Remain leaning organisation are all corrupt or at best unethical is more a reflection of the character of the leave campaign and its inability to put forward any practical arguments or plans. The fact that people might actually know what they are talking about seems to be an irrelevance in the Brexit alternative universe.

Wont change any minds I am sure but Professor Michael Dugan analyses of the EU referendum debate is very revealing, and should have been broadcast wider. https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/22/transcript-professor-michael-dougan-eu-referendum/.

Minor point you dont need a voting card to vote.

It will be close, 52 remain 48 leave

No arrrogance merely observations and interpretion based on your posts

No arrrogance merely observations and interpretion based on your posts

I am not sure why I continue to engage with your good self; however I do enjoy a debate especially when it is so easy to counter the opposite view. No politician is to be trusted; this principle was established by the Greeks at the birth of democracy. The issue of Turkeys membership has been a long standing part of the leave camps strategy. To claim it is only relevant because DC has championed it to the same level as leave has challenged it is disingenuous. The statement I am referring to is the claim by Brexit that the UK Turkish Embassy Website carries a pledge to work towards EU membership, I have been unable to find such a pledge, and I assumed as you have claimed it exists, you would know where to find it. I like optimism however in this case optimism will not help, you casually dismiss every warning form every quarter that leaving will have a detrimental impact on the UK as scaremongering and idle threats, yet lap up the lies and deceit of leave claims. Did you read the Guardian article linked above, it states the facts about trading with the EU if you are not in the EU, and it is not as straightforward as your optimism imagines. My ‘optimism’ on a future referendum is actually more than that, if this referendum has taught us anything it is that the majority of UK citizens want a reformed EU as a minimum. The easily dismissed outcome of DC’s renegotiations are another area where leavers are not being honest, your are right he did not get everything he wanted, that never happens in international negotiations, but to say he got nothing is fatuous. One final question do you actually research and personally develop any of the claims and arguments you make or are they just parroted repetitions of the swaggering right wing press and he swivel eyed loons who inhabit the world of leave.

I get the impression that our fellow message board contributor just does not quite get how these things work. He has shown a tenacious capability to continually lecture on serious matters without actually hinting at any understanding or grasp of facts. This despite apparently being of an age where at least some wisdom might have been accrued. Claiming that voting for a party is disconnected from voting for its leader is a clear indication of one who is somewhat disconnected from reality.

Some truth in what you say, however what Dave does or does not say is irrelevant to the real issue of Turkeys 'impending' membership of the EU. As you brexiters are so keen to continually point out neither Dave or our Parliament have the final say in EU matters. The fact remains that the Turkey issue is another load of bunkum from remain, where does that leave their credibility? I am still searching for the oft quoted statement, can you help? Finally this is not a referendum on David Cameron or any other slimy politician it is a vote on the future of the UK and the wider Europe and put simply you are happy to take a leap of faith and massive risk I am not. If we stay we can have another referendum if Brexit’s forecast of a USE and EU Army come to pass and I am sure if that were the case we would leave, if we leave now that’s it.

I am unable to find a pledge about Turkeys Membership what it does say is "The overall aim of the RE Programme is to support countries in the Western Balkans and Turkey on their path towards EU accession. The programme focuses, in particular, on stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and the respect for and protection of minorities" note the conditions, even you must be able to admit that Turkey under its current leadership and direction are not going to meet any of these criteria any time soon. Additionally even without the EU angle, I fully support UK Diplomatic objectives that focus, on stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and the respect for and protection of minorities, seems a very British set of things to aspire to.

At last a resonable view, dosnt make the case for Brexit tough as the the tresury is one of many forecasts and true to form you only site the one that tends to your view, whilst not really supporting it. Andrew Neil is paid to make politicians lives uncomfortable, he is a master at it, he does not care which side they all get the same treatment. Farage in 2 interviews with AN dosnt seem to know whether he wants net imigration at 30k or 50k either way he accepsts net immigration, do all Brexiters realise this.

It is a statement of fact, please post the quote that states the EU and Eurozone will be integrated, merged or whatver it is you are concerned about.

You are aware that the 5 Presidents Reports refers to the Eurozone, and that the UK are not part of the Eurozone. The report is aimed at strengthening the eurozone and while I acknowledge that the UK is not totally imune from Eurozone developments and changes this is also true of the US Dollar and FED RES.

They dont, not easy to find out, what they are doing is sharing National Tax Identifcation Numbers (TINS) to prevent tax avoidance, all TIN's will still come under the jurisdiction of individual member states and it is still permissable not to have TINS and there is NO requiremnt on countries who do not use TIN's to introduce a TIN's system. So another Brexit myth methinks.

Stop all this reality, it has nothing to do with the Brexit World. Brexit behaves like a medieval religious cult where reality is suspended and replaced by a quasi religious belief that everything will be provided for once we leave the shackles of the EU and the devils and demons that populate the hell that is the EU Commission.

Prey tell the significance of a small, albeit very successful, landlocked country with a long history of neutralism and non-alignment having any bearing on the choice facing the United Kingdom of Northern Ireland and Great Britain, an historic seafaring globally engaged nation. Your predilection to draw analogies where there are none is further evidence, as if any were required, of your poor grasp of the situation and the momentous decision we face.

Is there the repost possibility that you could either use your own brain to debate or if that is to difficult please stop posting link after link, many of which are horses**t.

Call me arrogant, disparaging, smug, superior or anything else but apart from the chancer politicians and a small minority of foremost business leaders, economists, academics etc. the vast majority of the people I hear and read talking about leaving the EU are either ignorant, ill informed, bigoted or xenophobic, indeed in many case all of these and worse. I have no issue with anyone who attempts to put forward a coherent case for Brexit the problem is that I have yet to see one. The majority of the remain camp have acknowledged that there are problems within the EU but Brexit refuses to acknowledge any benefits whilst at the same time claiming it will be better out. Leaving is the most regressive policy I have witnessed in 40 odd years of following politics and to claim it is forward thinking is absurd. The Leave campaign has today set out its policies post Brexit, please tell me who will enact these policies, the current Government has no mandate for any of them, yet more deception.