moonraker

The Brexiters on here like Wes and Duckhunter continue the 'it will be alright on the night' argument despite all the very real signals that Brexit means an almighty f**kup. Not a single Brexit promise will be kept, except possibly the one about leaving the EU. Despite all the statements from post Brexit Brexiteers, the people who we will be negotiating with in the EU and around the world that are clear that we will not get the deals Brexit promised, that the £350 m will go to the NHS, that Irish citizens will not retain their free movement etc. Etc. they continue to claim that we are in position of strength and all will be well. Sorry you are wrong, I do not need any great intellect or education to know this just common sense and a dose of reality, two things Brexiters seem very short of based on their continued denial of what is actually happening.

Simple question are you willing to scarifice unfettered access to the biggest developed market in the world on the basis of perceived yes perceived accession to the EU of countries mentioned? And why mention Turkey, as has been firmly established they ain't joining at any time in the next 30 years, neither have you addressed the issue of non EU immigration, and how do square the claim that according to many in your camp Brexit was not about immigration.

You are correct in principle but completely wrong in practice. As has been fully recognised over half immigration has nothing to do with the EU and therefore we already had control. Leaving the E U may allow us some ability to restrict EU citizens entering the country but at what cost, having control does not in itself lead to a better outcome, especially with the likes of Fox leading the way.

Don't be stupid! How will Brexit change immigration? And whilst people may have concerns the vast majority are ill conceived and fuelled by the right wing press and right wing politicians. It is not ignorance I suffer from unlike those who seek to use immigration for their own ends.

Easy to point out the negatives but for a shameful display from the officials we would all be very encouraged by that performance. There is certainly work to do but we have the core of more than decent top half team, oh except Redmond who has far from impressed so far.

I was being polite. It's obvious that that a significant number are stupid, it has just been P C to pretend otherwise. Indeed Nigel Fartarse and his acolytes have built their political careers on the stupidty of a section of the electorate. What is really sad is he and others on the extreme right and left of politics have created in our tolerant and proud nation a division that will not heal for a generation or more.

I love you, every post is condescending, you must be a very famous person who has achieved world acclaimed status! So who are you, one of the Khardashians?

[quote=Johnny Bognor;2396841t This is about a struggle between the power of the people and the power of the state. What a complete load of cr*p, this has been the biggest lie of Brexit, but it has seemingly convinced a large portion of the British public, sadly I am coming to the conclusion that a significant number of them really are stupid. Yes I am insulting you and all who believe the in Dreamland of Brexit, yes I am angry, and yes I will continue to argue for what I sincerely believe is in the best interest of the U.K. staying in the EU.

You make a very good and for me important point. I asked the same question and came to a different decision, which of us has made the right prediction only time will tell. I decided that remaining in and fignting for an EU that was only focused on the benefits it could bring to the citizens of its member countries was prefereable to being outside but signifcantly impacted with no say or influence.

I was referring to the leaders of the campaign who it seemed to me had only one objective, furtherance of their careers or the continued ideological struggle the evil forces of the EU. I agree very few if any the normal voters cast their ballot out of self interest. Of course we will continue to co-operate and trade internationally where have I ever said we would not. However it is my belief that being a part of the EU makes that much easier, less costly over time and more aligned to the world of today. It is interesting that prior to the vote the Leave campaign was focussed on the mythical £350 m that would suddenly be available to the UK Government and Immigration, now the majority of the focus is trade. Currently all we get from leavers on trade is don’t worry it will be alright, there is no coherent strategy, little agreement between the various factions, and no understanding of how to negotiate international trade agreements, so by all means accuse me of being a tad concerned that it might not be aright, because i am.

For me it is that simple, embrace international co-opertaion and collaboration and it is a rejection of the regressive, multi layered, disjointed muddle, created by the self interested Brexit campaign.

Very simple, to remain part of collaborative family of nations with far more that unites them than separates them.

It really is hard to take the rantings of an un-reconstituted bigot seriously. Your use of the term "women" is plainly sexist, your inaccuracy about her tenure of immigration policy is ignorance and your dismissal of remain supporters as ****wits is arrogant and frankly bad-mannered. But then anyone who can use a picture of the supreme bigot Farage without any irony is unlikely to be capable of anything else. Thankfully remainers and leavers with a better grip on reality, civility and the facts will be negotiating our exit from the EU and not Farage and his ilk.

Sometimes it means Brunch, which as you will know is a blend of breakfast and lunch, so perhaps our PM realy wants brexmain.

So why didn’t your clever Brexit leaders identify that glaring fault in their dastardly plans when they propsoed it as soloution to the problem? It seems you voted for somthing you for which have absoloutly no idea of the outcome, i rest my case where brexit is concerned. You constant judgment of those who debate with you and have a different view as arrogant brings pots and black kettles to mind.

My point exactly, however it is not simple, leave voters have been espousing a range of policies that will not have come to pass when we eventually leave the EU. So my question to leave voters is, what are your red lines, because what appears to be happening is that many of the perceived benefits of Brexit and the policies to achieve them are disappearing, or at best being heavily diluted, one by one. So what exactly will we have achieved at the end of this divisive and unnecessary process?

Nigel farage angry, why Brexit means Brexit, what else it means is anyones guess, it certianly wont mean what many leave voters belived when they cast their vote.

Oh that's fine then! The man is shameless.

Agree it is a bit different, still see it as hypocritcal.

Seems nasty Nigel is showing his true colours over the pond, speaking at a US Republican rally. I thought he was against foreign nationals interfering in domestc politics. Shameless self publicist.

As Whitey says many what ifs, it may have been different without the lies from both sides, but siting the Jo Cox murder is beyond contempt. As for complaining about allowing more time to register, are you advocating denying people their democratic right? For me it is the lies and spin that calls into question the credibility of the poll. You are obviously happy to have won even when it was such a blatantly dishonest campaign. You seem to arguing that leave would have had a bigger majority if those things you mention had not occurred. If you truly believe that then another referendum should provide a ringing endorsement for Brexit not the marginal and divisive outcome we currently have, so why not have another vote, now the spin and lies has been exposed ? Comparing unemployment with a referendum result is just apples and pears.

It was marginal, about the same as one city, Birmingham, or put another way a 2% swing would change the result, that is marginal by any measure. If using 1.25 million instead of 3.8 % makes you feel good so be it. Had remain won by the same margin I of coarse would be happy, but I would also accept that a very large minority voted to leave and would not be harping on about winners and losers but discussing how best our nation moves forward and should address the genuine concerns of those who supported leave. I am afraid since the vote many Brexiters have come across as patronising gits, ironic given what was said about reaminers prior to the poll, whose most consistent trait is using repetitive childish slogans, “suck it up losers”.

Another Brexmyth, whilst true that the UK is not the worst offender in terms of non-compliance with EU law neither are we the best that the Holier than thou attitude of Brexit would have us believe. At least 4 EU countries have a better compliance record that the UK, while most others are similar on compliance. There are admittedly a handful of EU members who consistently flout the rules, and funny old thing, they have significantly more Court of Justice rulings against them than the UK, unfortunately your wont find this information in the Daily Express or Mail. By the way were not out, all that has happened is a non binding plebicite was marginally in favour of leaving the EU, Brexit does not mean Brexit yet!

No ever said change would be easy, but as I said politicians are survivors and while they may take a while to fully acknowledge the mood of their electorates then even within the EU they can act. The commission acts under the authority of the council of minsters and tehrefore it can be reformed and needs to be. I am sure I have as great a synicism and dislike of the current structure as you, I would just rather stay in and fight for what is right.

Trouble is once Lawyers are involved it is not quite so clear cut and we all end up paying one way or another.