moonraker

History interesting thought! British empire built on slavery, military power and complete disregard of ancient cultures. Switzerland not known for its imperial non democratic subjugation of others or indeed its involvement in war crimes. Are you one of those skates who think our owners got their wealth through NAZI connections? Or just a slightly xenophobic Brexiter?

Any news on the riots in Switzerland following their Governments undemocratic decision not to act on the will of people, but instead to act in the best long term interest of the country. Bloody politicians next they will be telling us lies, just to get us to vote for them. Still I am sure these arch eniemies of democracy will be wiped out at the next Swiss general election.

Simply shocking

As opposed to the 2nd rate distorted, lying journalism one finds in the Daily Mail, The Express, The Sun etc. You have as usual totally failed to address the very genuine points made in the article, instead you continue be dismissive of the challenge and bask in the glory of a nothing vote in parliament. The thought of Corbyn as our PM terrifies me but to dismiss a labour victory if May and her Brexiteers cock up is not only arrogant but contrary to recent outcomes in the referendum and the US where the seemingly impossible happened. I am not as convinced as you that UKIP can pick up the tactical votes of sufficient centre, left of centre and left wing voters to have any impact. First they need to get their party back on an even course and then hope there are enough easily swayed tactical voters to support them. Still if we get a left wing Corbyn government at least you right wing Europhile Tories will be able to move abroad, oh wait a minute!

The Guardian article (left wing nonsense to hard nosed Brexiteers) clearly demonstrates that voting to leave the EU is not as simple as Brexit means Brexit. I have yet to read or hear from any Brexiteer how they are going to achieve an exit from the EU and all its associated commitments and obligations in a time frame that the majority of the electorate will a. be satisfied with and b. support come what may. Once the penny drops and majority of the electorate realise just how damaging this Tory Party folly is they can say goodbye to electoral success at the next election, even with Corbyn in charge Labour. All that has been achieved is to create even greater division in the country and in the minds of those who advocate it give undeserved legitimacy to abhorrent far right politics.

Arse may have fielded a second stream but that was hardly our first 11, we were superb and deserved that, and nothing should detract from a great performance that shows our strength in depth ain't to shabby. Don't care who we get in the semi Puel wants this and on tonight's performance the players want it as well. Would love to knock Scousehampton out in the semi.

Great to get back to winning ways. More goals would be welcome especially when we are creating good chances. I thought the whole team played well, our shape and discipline were excellent, yes VVD, Sims, Rom, Cedric were the pick of the bunch but all contributed positively. As for RK completely ungracious. Everton fans need to realise he had a better bunch of senior players than the veterans squad he now has, and he won't use youth so mid table is the best you will get from him.

Not arguing about the accuracy of the percentage of companies by simple numbers, just that they are meaningless in the overall context of the importance of exports. As for penetrating my skull, the space between your ears where most of us keeps a brain seems to suck in lots of random stuff, mix it up and then regurgitate it as more random stuff. Your stock answer is wait and see, if that is not optimistic and naive I don’t know what is. Even when you acknowledge that things might be difficult you justify it by saying it will be all worth it to get back yours and Brexiteers fantasy concept of sovereignty. The first time after the disaster of the referendum that Sovereign UK Law is used the Brexiteers go into their standard operating procedure of insults, vitriol and denial. Brexit will be disaster, all the signs are their your ideological myopia is incapable of acknowledging it.

The argument about the absolute number/percentage of companies that export to EU is fallacious. What is fundamental is the value in terms of overall exports of those companies. The wealth and success of major exporters is vital to the wealth and success of many non-exporters, especially in the retail, catering and hospitality sectors. These sectors may not in themselves export but they do not exist in a bubble. Despite Wes’s seemingly to continually avoid the fact that that the value of UK exports to the EU is a major and essential part of our economy it is highly likely that many non-exporting business in these sectors will suffer a significant knock on effect from more difficult trading conditions for exporters. The idea that as yet un-negotiated, overly optimistic bilateral trade deals or some special deal with the EU will solve all our self imposed ills is mindboggling naive.

Wait a minute I thought expert analyst forecast were poppycock, for every one of theseopinion pieces supporting Bexit there are ten by equally worthy individuals damming Brexit. the reference article is an opinion of what might happen and as you keep pointing out we need to wait and see, since this was published the direction of travel hasn't been in favour of this gentlemans forecast.

As usual you open with a pathetic dismissive remark, and then spout the same unfounded repetitive speculative claims. The most arrogant and unfounded claims on here are from leavers who continue to make light of the difficulty and the time it will take to agree trade deals, you never acknowledge the cost, the lack of sufficient experienced negotiators, instead you infer that the world is queuing up to deal with us.

Whilst there has certainly been lies on both sides it isd a bit rich Brexiteers complaining when by any measure the lies of the leading Brexiteers and the Right Wing Rags take all the nonours. As for one sided popaganda that is the nature politics. The British political system is an outdated system, it maintains a simple Left - Right two party system that does not the reflect thr views of a large part of the electorate. A governemnt elected on under 37%, an opposition with 30% and 32% for anything but failed Tory and Labour. 62% of the electorate dont want the Tories but we are stuck with them and the mess they have now got us into because they were running scared of one sided UKIP propaganda.

Which of course is not the same as the Brexiteers approach of just wait and see, it will be OK honest, and if anything looks bad or contrary to your believes dismiss out of hand as "a load of old pony". Yours and your fellows contempt for knowledge and evidence based forecast knows no bounds yet you unswervingly claim everything will be better, based on………………….the square root of sweet FA.

It seems Fox is showing his true colours, threatening EU members that if we dont get what we (he) wants then they will be sued by non-eu countries for compenstaion as result of lack of access to the Single market via their UK holdings. What a prize pudding, it is the UK who will be held liable for this, we are the ones who are instigating leave. And to think there are people who actually think this Governemnt knows what it is doing.

That’s not what is being asked for though is it, what is being asked for is a clear view on what Governements desired outcome of Brexit will be. This does not mean giving away ones negotiating positions, I spend much of my time in business negotiating with clients and potential partners, we can always agree a common outcome, the details and strength of our various negotiating hand does not need to be compromised to agree these outcomes.

I agree, so why did we have to go through all the bluff and bluster, May has behaved without any regard to our Parlimentary Democracy, something many in the Leave camp claimed they were camaigning to restore fully.

John B, nail on head, sadly Brexiteers do not want to address the real constitutional, political, economic and social damage that is happening, they are far to drunk on winning, and feeling superior. They have little grasp of what or how our democracy works. The ruling of the High Court was a clear example of taking back control, yet another reality they are incapable of acknowledging.

Ah The Old Green Tree, a hive of philosophers if ever there was one.

The hard line Brexiters do not care what the consequences of Brexit are, they are ideologically incapable of coherent debate as the only thing that maters is leaving the EU. The erroneous arguments they continue to trot out are pitiful. The total disarray of UKIP is clear evidence that those who are most anti the EU have little or no ability, they are just a bunch of angry rabble rousers. The shame is they were only a minority of the 52% who voted leave, the majority did so as much out of frustration and disenchantment with the Westminster Government as with EU.

This is not about parochial party politics this is the long term future of our country, dragging up the performance of past Governments is pathetic.

As you say Tate & Lyle are the processors, my point was about the British farmers. Tate and Lyle are owned by American Sugar Holdings and their stance on the EU was more to do with reducing the cost of their cane sugar imports than protecting British jobs or British farmers, why listen to an American apparently the Brexit camping said it was none of there business. You Brexiters do want your cake and to eat it. Brexiters in the main slate big corporations unless the odd one or two support your rapidly disappearing arguments for self harm.

The EU have already dealt with the Isoglucose quotas, http://www.foodnavigator.com/Market-Trends/Isoglucose-may-take-a-third-of-EU-sugar-market. They are to support EU sugar producers, the UK being the 5th largest producer in the EU with over 3400 UK farms growing sugarbeet. How would you support our sugabeet producers?

What point are you trying to make with your obsession with unemployment in selected countries in th EU, this thread is about the UK where as a member of the EU we have high levels of employment, hence we require the current levels of immigration to fuel what was until the referendum a strong economy. National borders are not the issue as evidenced by the disparity in regional employment levels. No amount of suck it up rhetoric will alter the fact we have inflicted a massive amount of self harm.

Bottom line whatever else applied it was not a binding referendum, despite breakfast means something, with only 37 % support if it were ignored democracy would not be abused.

Will Brexiters lease please stop saying a majority of the electorate voted to leave, they did not, only 37% of the ELECTORATE voted to leave, 35% voted to stay and 28% either could not vote, chose not to vote, or don’t care. This is the main reason I continue to argue about the outcome, it is not like a General election where FPTP allows a majority Government on a minority vote, at least we get a chance to change things every 5 years, Brexit is irreversible. Farage made this self same point himself, before he knew the outcome.