moonraker

Whilst there has certainly been lies on both sides it isd a bit rich Brexiteers complaining when by any measure the lies of the leading Brexiteers and the Right Wing Rags take all the nonours. As for one sided popaganda that is the nature politics. The British political system is an outdated system, it maintains a simple Left - Right two party system that does not the reflect thr views of a large part of the electorate. A governemnt elected on under 37%, an opposition with 30% and 32% for anything but failed Tory and Labour. 62% of the electorate dont want the Tories but we are stuck with them and the mess they have now got us into because they were running scared of one sided UKIP propaganda.

Which of course is not the same as the Brexiteers approach of just wait and see, it will be OK honest, and if anything looks bad or contrary to your believes dismiss out of hand as "a load of old pony". Yours and your fellows contempt for knowledge and evidence based forecast knows no bounds yet you unswervingly claim everything will be better, based on………………….the square root of sweet FA.

It seems Fox is showing his true colours, threatening EU members that if we dont get what we (he) wants then they will be sued by non-eu countries for compenstaion as result of lack of access to the Single market via their UK holdings. What a prize pudding, it is the UK who will be held liable for this, we are the ones who are instigating leave. And to think there are people who actually think this Governemnt knows what it is doing.

That’s not what is being asked for though is it, what is being asked for is a clear view on what Governements desired outcome of Brexit will be. This does not mean giving away ones negotiating positions, I spend much of my time in business negotiating with clients and potential partners, we can always agree a common outcome, the details and strength of our various negotiating hand does not need to be compromised to agree these outcomes.

I agree, so why did we have to go through all the bluff and bluster, May has behaved without any regard to our Parlimentary Democracy, something many in the Leave camp claimed they were camaigning to restore fully.

John B, nail on head, sadly Brexiteers do not want to address the real constitutional, political, economic and social damage that is happening, they are far to drunk on winning, and feeling superior. They have little grasp of what or how our democracy works. The ruling of the High Court was a clear example of taking back control, yet another reality they are incapable of acknowledging.

Ah The Old Green Tree, a hive of philosophers if ever there was one.

The hard line Brexiters do not care what the consequences of Brexit are, they are ideologically incapable of coherent debate as the only thing that maters is leaving the EU. The erroneous arguments they continue to trot out are pitiful. The total disarray of UKIP is clear evidence that those who are most anti the EU have little or no ability, they are just a bunch of angry rabble rousers. The shame is they were only a minority of the 52% who voted leave, the majority did so as much out of frustration and disenchantment with the Westminster Government as with EU.

This is not about parochial party politics this is the long term future of our country, dragging up the performance of past Governments is pathetic.

As you say Tate & Lyle are the processors, my point was about the British farmers. Tate and Lyle are owned by American Sugar Holdings and their stance on the EU was more to do with reducing the cost of their cane sugar imports than protecting British jobs or British farmers, why listen to an American apparently the Brexit camping said it was none of there business. You Brexiters do want your cake and to eat it. Brexiters in the main slate big corporations unless the odd one or two support your rapidly disappearing arguments for self harm.

The EU have already dealt with the Isoglucose quotas, http://www.foodnavigator.com/Market-Trends/Isoglucose-may-take-a-third-of-EU-sugar-market. They are to support EU sugar producers, the UK being the 5th largest producer in the EU with over 3400 UK farms growing sugarbeet. How would you support our sugabeet producers?

What point are you trying to make with your obsession with unemployment in selected countries in th EU, this thread is about the UK where as a member of the EU we have high levels of employment, hence we require the current levels of immigration to fuel what was until the referendum a strong economy. National borders are not the issue as evidenced by the disparity in regional employment levels. No amount of suck it up rhetoric will alter the fact we have inflicted a massive amount of self harm.

Bottom line whatever else applied it was not a binding referendum, despite breakfast means something, with only 37 % support if it were ignored democracy would not be abused.

Will Brexiters lease please stop saying a majority of the electorate voted to leave, they did not, only 37% of the ELECTORATE voted to leave, 35% voted to stay and 28% either could not vote, chose not to vote, or don’t care. This is the main reason I continue to argue about the outcome, it is not like a General election where FPTP allows a majority Government on a minority vote, at least we get a chance to change things every 5 years, Brexit is irreversible. Farage made this self same point himself, before he knew the outcome.

It is becoming very apparent that our resident Brexiters did not do join the dots puzzles as children. They spout random "facts & figures" without any acknowledgement of the interconnectivity and interdependency of reality. The Tescos story is a simple example, unbelievably one of their claims is it will be a benefit as it will mean buying British and reducing our reliance on imports. A number of problems there; for manufactured goods we can’t produce many of the inputs required, for food British farmers rely on ‘un-skilled’ low wage foreign labour to produce food at the prices we have be come accustomed too, British ‘un-skilled’ labour will not do seasonal agricultural work at current wage levels. So joining 3 dots (an easy one this) prices will rise due to a weak pound, wages will be suppressed as producers come under pressure to keep prices down, spending on manufactured goods will reduce as the price of essentials rises. In addition our farmers and horticulturists will be unable to harvest a whole range of crops and will either stop growing or have to raise wages to attract “un-skilled” Brits an hence prices rise and imports grow.

As usual a simplistic response, its not about accepting the result, its about wanting competence in delivering Brexit, to date all we have seen and heard from this dysfunctional Government is sound bites, incompetence, u-turns and more untruths. If you put any 2 brexiters in a room they would not be able to agree on how to execute the will of the people. You may have your head in the sand but please don’t make out nothing has happened and everything is OK. If I were a leave voter I would be incensed at the lack of transparency and democratic accountability, how would I know if I am getting the Brexit I voted for? As a UK voter I have every right to ask questions of the Government on their policy for exiting the EU and I expect our elected representatives to scrutinise their policies to ensure the best outcome for the country as a whole.

My point was not about the EU but about this Tory Governments performance and attitude to the long established British Parliamentary Principle of Sovereignty. Mrs May’s failure to address the genuine and worrying concerns expressed across the political spectrum on her handling of withdrawal for the EU is real arrogance. I cannot help concluding that we continue to suffer, as a nation, because of the internal squabbles and failure of the Tories, and please, please don’t respond if all you can manage is the EU is worse, were supposed to be in control now!!

Because leavers in reality revel in denigrating the UK purely to justify their backward looking view of the world, and then they have the gall to call it patriotism.

Its not just petrol tough is it, as is so often to pointed out we import more than we export, your Tory government has been in austerity mode for 7 years, wages have been suppressed, services cut, and now we have this self inflicted Brexit uncertainty furthe erroding peoples budgets. Leaving the EU may have had some advantages but these have been flushed away by the behaviour of the Government since the vote, their performance has been farcical, no plan, demeaning of a Parliamentary democracy and arrogant in the extreme. I know you have no concern for the UK citizens living abroad, many of those rely on UK based pensions and their standard of living is dropping like a stone, they are facing uncertainty on future health care, and yet all we get from the arrogant Brexit leaders is that we have a strong hand to play, yet another falsehood amongst the many.

In other news Germany Sweden Finland Denmark........ The price of oil set by OPEC caused that nothing to do with our decision you are very good at laying all ills at the EU s door, why not try thinking a bit broader.

So the pound continues to tank! Batman will be happy. However the rising cost of imports is wiping out the benefits of our cheaper exports, petrol likely to rise 3 - 4p litre very quickly. It may just be a transitional blip, but I fear we have years of uncertainty and instability, I wonder how many leavers will be so jingoistic in 5 years time?

Agree, he comes across well.

UKIP in turmoil despite winning the referendum. Hope Stephen Wolfe is OK.

Wes you were doing quite well until this classic. It seems you haven’t realised in 2016, we live in a Globalised World, some might interpret your statement as a tad xenophobic. By the way they are a Dutch company founded over 130 years ago.

So all these rejections of “the will of the people” have resulted in what? Certainly not a game changing lurch to the right or civil disturbance in the countries mentioned, which is what the numptees on here are predicting would happen if the Government did not carry out “the will of the people”. We elect Governments to make policy based on facts and credible evidence, and to test their policies in our sovereign Parliament. As the referendum was based on myth, lies and tabloid press sensationalism, setting it aside could be easily justified by a governing party that puts the country first is not one obsessed by its internal squabbling. Referendums are a flawed and duplicitous mechanism, they are neither democratic nor defining, just divisive.