moonraker

Do you actually read, there is legal opinion that there may be a case for challenging the reasons for the referendum https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/politics-brexit-unlawful-eu-uk. I am sure you will arbitrarily dismiss this as it is Guardian Article. Additionally Article 50 needs an act of Parliament as it is not in the gift of the executive power of the PM. If the current house votes it might well vote down the referendum, alternatively the new PM decides to go to the country on a manifesto promise to enact Article 50 this would be tantamount to a second referendum and therefore if the winning party or a winning coalition of parties had campaigned against enactment of article 50 the referendum result would be set aside. Leavers may not like it but this is UK law and we all know how much you leavers believe that UK law is far superior to any one else’s law and therefore you will all accept it as a demonstration of our national sovereignty.

If UKIP secured 17.5 m votes at a General Election then I would accept leaving without a murmur, the fact is they wont. Wes cited the European Elections as evidence of their electoral success when in reality what they did was get their vote out, 73% of voters in the EU elections did not support UKIP.

If there is one thing worse than sore losers its arrogant, bad-mannered winners. Try debating for once instead of crowing.

I am not wriggling I am just stating the reality of where we are, what in my post is incorrect. You are right on one thing UKIP won the Euro Elections, tough 27% is hardly a substantial majority , with roughly the same number of votes they polled in the General Election, EU elections are just that, EU Elections, they confer no mandate for domestic policy, and therefore I contend they are immaterial. For a party focused on leaving the EU their only electoral success was in elections for that self same institution they wish to leave, wow! You are wrong Parliament is not elected to carry out the wishes of the people it is elected to deliver the manifesto and policies of the majority party as expressed in the Queens (Sovereigns) speech. I know all this is a bit complicated for you but wining a referendum does not ensure anything. The most telling thing in your post and the key reason I am so annoyed with the whole referendum is that it was as you have said, and therefore I assume believe, a sop to UKIP, designed to quell internal Tory unrest. There is already a body of legal argument that if it can be proven that this is the cases then the whole referendum was illegal. I am sure that as Brexiters are so keen on abiding by UK Law they will fully support an investigation into these worrying claims.

Camerons resignation means his pre referndum statement is null and void. Its is not about sore losing, it is about continuing to campign for what we believe in. If remain had won would UKIP have folded and gone away, would Farage have said I tried but the Bristish people dont want to leave? Indeed would all Brexisters, kippers or otherwise, have just faded away quietly?

Lets put to bed once and for all the claim that the majority of the electorate voted to leave, they did not, circa 39% voted to leave and 37% to remain, 26% either could not make their minds up or don't care. Leave have harped on and on about democracy and the lack of it in the EU and now expect a whole nation to leap into the dark on a minority vote. There is no plan, chaotic political leadership and no general election manifesto mandate (UKIP the only party who campaigned for leave got 12.6% of the votes cast in the GE so no mandate there). Brexiters childish retort of 'you lost get over it' sums up the mentality of many brexiters and their lack of understanding of the democratic and political process enshrined in our sovereign laws. The referendum result must be taken seriously and it may well lead to the UK leaving the EU, but that is not certain. Brexit trumpeted sovereignty in their campaign and that sovereignty resides in the Houses of Parliament not the electorate, this is the basis of the UK democratic process that predates the EU by hundreds of years. The irony being that because we are still a Sovereign State, free to enact its own laws without EU approval the referendum can legally be set aside. The veiled threats as expressed by some posters that it will get nasty if we don’t leave exemplifies much that was unacceptable in the leave campaign. Leaving the EU is Parliaments decision and if they do decide to set aside the referendum, ‘get over it’, that’s British Sovereignty in action, its how the British constitutions works and it is why many are campaigning for a General Election, once the party leadership fiascos are resolved.

HaHa yYou post a link to a piece by a rabid leaver, why?

Well I'm off to Gibralter in the morning and looking forward to partying with our Gibratarian citizens who got the rereferndum right.

That's not fair and far to complicated for some to understand, what Batman really wants to know is when will we stop immigration and how does the FTSE thingy stop a European army, simples!

So briefings are indicating that Gove has only thrown his hat in the ring to stop Boris. The Tory infighting and backstabbing got us into this mess and now Brexiters will be saddled with more Tory treachery and these are the people that will lead us into the unknown. As Duckhunter said, shame leave won. If WW1 was lions led by donkeys, Brexit is baboons led by snakes.

More the Royal We, I to voted remain.

He is not standing becasuse he wont get suffiecient Tory support and because he really wnats to remain and very time he opens his mouth he puts both feet in it. Another fine mess we have got ourselves in.

He is not standing becasuse he wont get suffiecient Tory support and because he really wants to remain and evry time he opens his mouth he puts both feet in it. Another fine mess we have got ourselves in.

Its rubbish, we are in our third meltdown in sucssesion, Les is clueless and we are just a stepping stone, I know this to be true because so many of our fans keep posting it.

We have not got control back, in a globalised world Brexit is the greatest series of illusions since Houdini, and Boris is his natural successor.

So the key planks of the Brexit Camping are slowly unravelling; the NHS wont get £350m extra a week, we cant get immigration down to 10,000s, free movement will remain if want access to the single market, and while the sun might still be shining the pound is being hammered, energy costs are rising, the stock market is falling (great for pensions!) our credit rating is downgraded, and our political leadership is in chaos, xenophobia appears to be on the rise, constituent parts of the United Kingdom are planning rebellions. But hey ho its all a price worth paying, we wont be in the EU.

The parliamentary Labour Party want to change the leader, if he wont go voluntarily a General Election will certainly see his demise. Conversely there may well be many who are not prepared to risk their seats for their principles. My judgement is they will go for a General Election it will also delay Article 50.

My country has lost and time will prove you wrong

Shut up you part three tw*t, you bore for England

I am very disappointed, but recognise the result and now desperately want to see some real leadership to ensure we execute our withdrawal for the EU effectively and honourably. I am a glass half full person and while this result saddens me it provides an opportunity to re-energise politics and increase engagement and participation. The hard part has just begun and delivering the benefits of Brexit will be watched closely. The euphoria of gaining independence for the United Kingdom may well presage the break up of the United Kingdom as Scotland voted unanimously to Remain and will I believe leave the Union. Cameron is rightly being challenged on his failure to deliver a remain vote and will resign, but in my view it Corbyn who should shoulder the most blame and resign. Corbyn has been an apathetic participant in the campaign, it is the Labour Heartlands that have delivered on a Right Wing policy and he should resign. Finally whilst we have had some impassioned exchanges and penned the odd insult I have enjoyed the debate on here. There have been some thought provoking and heartfelt arguments from both sides and if that can be magnified across politics in general around the country that can only be a good thing for democracy.

The real hurdle they will have to clear is that of being Right Wing. Working class voters are in the main only interested in UKIP becuase of immigration, their other policies, such as they are, will not attract suffiecient traditional left of centre voters to have any chance of electroral success in FPTP system. They are a one policy party in the eyes of much of the electorate, a policy that is unworkable, that leave has admitted is unlikely to curb immigration signifcantly.

You are right, the Governemnt are not constitutionaly bound by referedums, however if they choose to ignore the outcome we would really see the sparks flying.

A fair point, but could you answer my question.

Have you listened to it, what in his lecture is untrue, false, or in any other way deceptive? The leave line of insinuating that any one with a link to the EU, Big Business or some other Remain leaning organisation are all corrupt or at best unethical is more a reflection of the character of the leave campaign and its inability to put forward any practical arguments or plans. The fact that people might actually know what they are talking about seems to be an irrelevance in the Brexit alternative universe.

Wont change any minds I am sure but Professor Michael Dugan analyses of the EU referendum debate is very revealing, and should have been broadcast wider. https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/22/transcript-professor-michael-dougan-eu-referendum/.