moonraker

Well I am oldish educated and working class and I am for staying. I take no offence from Buctootim's post, because their is no offence in what he said only a resonable deduction from the article he referenced.

West Spam are very poor,

#213, at last a balanced non partisan post.

He dosn't or cant't answer open questions, you will have to play 20 questions to find out what he is really thinking.

As stated before it is not rant as it is not verbal. My post has no reference to any links previously posted. To accuse me of abuse is a bit strong, what you object to are my personal conclusions, based on your posts that I personally find distasteful from there explicit and implicit message. I am sure I am not alone in drawing these or similar conclusions based your persistent and repetitive arguments . As to my numerous apologies , so what, admitting I made a mistake and correcting it does not weaken my position. And for clarity because we know you love clarity I apologised on two occasions, so hardly numerous.

Why do you continually make up ridiculous scenarios. The posters who are challenging you neither want or have said they would be happy with any of the things your self-indulgent imagination keeps generating. You answered my earlier questions in the affirmative, they were deliberately closed questions to make it simple for you. Your answer to the first confirmed, in my opinion, you are a racist. Your obvious limited understanding of English etymology and usage is supporting evidence of a myopic mind-set, further exhibited in your simplistic and ill considered view of Muslims. I can not decide whether you are actually just standard UKIPER, an EDL acolyte, or a very persistent and slightly sad WUM. Off course you may be none of these things, but whatever you are you are not very bright.

No no no they have no positive benefit on our society they cant possibly be credited with improving our schools, especially from the bottom up. This is obviously evidence of the onward march of Muslim culture, in cahoots with the Chinese. We need to dumb these people down, we must stop providing them with these opportunities, we need more bigots, not educated foreigners!

To me there is only one confused poster in this debate and it is not CEC. Lets try a very easy question albeit 2 part question, the answer requires no references to news stories, learned papers, political propaganda or any of the other sources referenced during the course of this thread. Part 1: Do you, Sour Mash, truly believe that people of Islamic Faith have provided no positive benefit to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Part 2 Do you believe that the vast majority of UK Muslims are peaceful law abiding citizens. There is no right and wrong , the answers require no particular knowledge, special understanding, so even you should be able to come up with something more informative and imaginative than you hitherto have.

Hardly a surprise that the rich people's bank are implicated, I am not detective but would have thought it was a good place to start.

To clarify the magnitude of a counter reaction to an event that is unquestionably an attack on society the following Counter Reaction Scale is to be used. It must be noted that assigning a level of reaction force can be subjective and therefore the interpretation of the level of force understood by the majority should be accepted – forthwith the Scale shall to be known as the Societal Overview of Unilateral Reactions Scale Reaction Force 1: Polite Counter Response - > 20000 people Reaction Force 2: Polite Counter Response - > 50,000 people Reaction Force 3: Mockery Reaction Force 4: Disapproval Reaction Force 5: Ridicule Reaction Force 6: Contempt Reaction Force 7: Condemnation Reaction Force 8: Mild Criticism Reaction Force 9: Severe Criticism Reaction Force 10: Retaliation Reaction Force 11: Counterattack Reaction Force 12: Backlash Counter reactions of less than 10,000 people cannot be measured except where the counter reaction is by a smaller group of people or single person in a leading position of power and influence; In these cases the Mathematical Analysis Selection Hypothesis may be used. NB The Backlash level of Reaction Force must be used with extreme care due to risk of a counter backlash.

I cant disagree with your points, perhaps its the seemingly hopelessness of change you convey and the ''I've come to the conclusion that most people are corruptible on some level" that elicited the various responses and the fact you single out 2 areas of public spending that in an ideal world not be needed, but as we do not live in an ideal world we have to deal with crime and social welfare issues. I also think your negative blanket labeling of benefit claimants and every prisoner in custody might have added to the need for people to respond.

The problem I have is that if the evidence clearly demonstrates that a crime has been committed are you entitled to the same privacy protection? Your clumsy attempt to bring the EU into this is risible and very sad. Or are you advocating that if we leave we should not have privacy laws.

It’s not your money, it’s your share of the national wealth that you have exchanged for your labour, knowledge and skills, we call that currency and for it to have value it requires trust and honesty. You are only in a position to live and work in an advanced modern society because taxes are paid to pay for all those things you need to function. The policies and details of specific spending may be open to question the principle of tax is not. As to everyone is corruptible you miss the irony of complaining about benefit claimants (not a crime) while essentially condoning corruption (a crime) careful you may be domed to end up in prison with the scumbags, a surprisingly high number of them are fraudsters/corruptor scumbags. It would be interesting to know what market sector you work in, I have spent 42 years working and have certainly witnessed a few 'corrupt' practices thankfully the perpetrators were nearly always caught and duly dealt with .

So we will for the first time ever introduce birder controls on the Irish border. We did not even do that during the so called troubles.

And how much is that?

Oh it's that easy, good so nothing will really change then. I note you avoided the Irish border question.

What I would like to know is how do the Brexiters hpow will they change and improve border controls if we leave . Is it planned to reintroduce a visa system for all EU nationals? how much would this cost? How would the Irish border work? What are there contigency aarangemnts for the Scottish border should they at some time in future leave the Union and join the EU? Questions that need answering

Agree totally. My piece was to reflect that there is no specific mitigation based on the fact that the current biggest threat has sprung from Islam. It was to consider that the history of terrorist organisations tells us that they are all susceptible to the same influences and counter influences and that, as some on here try to do, arguing that dealing with Islam will deal with the threat is not the answer when actually what we need to deal with the problem as united society whatever our religious, ideological or cultural values.

Uh, where do I apologise, quite the opposite.

Terrorism is an issue for all religions, ideologies and cultures. The criminal gangs and factions we chose to label terrorist know no religious, ideological or cultural boundaries. Every religion, ideology and culture has in the past 100 years spawned terroism, the labelling of one group or another based on the religion, ideology and culture from which it sprang is at best disenchanting. The use of religion, ideology and culture is a simple device to claim some form of legitimacy that is never real or endowed. Terrorists rely on a wide range of societal conditions to have any effect the key ones being; accessibility, the oxygen of publicity, the fear in their own communities, and the lack of a united public opposition. They also revel in the badge of terrorism, we should deprive them of this and rebrand them simply as criminals, for that is all they are. The first is mitigated by protecting key entry points, covert surveillance and public awareness and despite the awful acts that terrorist have perpetrated over the years it is in the largely effective. Accessibility is all to often confused with freedom of movement and migration, when these are in and of themselves an enduring and essential feature of human society. The second is mitigated through international co-operation and national enforcement. In this area the mitigation is less effective. The world is awash with arms, and the means to produce arms, 99% of which have been legally produced. It is the secondary and subsequent markets where control is difficult if not impossible. The money that can be made by those of criminal intent and no morals is motivation enough. In the UK our strict firearms laws are excellently enforced and are a key pillar in the overall strategy, however we are in a small minority of states. Other weapons of choice of the terrorist are all outlawed or severely controlled in one way or another. The third is a very difficult area, we all want to live in a free and open society. A key component of this is a free press. While there are mechanisms in nearly all countries to apply some control on news stories it is not possible in the modern interconnected world to conceal public criminal acts. What could help is more rigorous research and responsible reporting especially of the conditions, attitudes and behaviours of legitimate groups in society who are seen by some as the defenders of one criminal faction or another. Alienating these groups is counter productive and simply dishonest, unfortunately to often it is cheap journalism dressed up as serious investigation. To appreciate the fourth one would have to live within a community that is terrified of these criminals. Indeed it is not only terrorists that lever control over communities based on fear, home-grown criminal networks use exactly the same tactics. The only answer is ever more effective policing and justice and effective protection of the communities from which these groups sprout. Three and four above are the key to cracking the fifth problem. Much of the disunity across society stems from a lack of knowledge and understanding, and a failure or genuine inability to fully support the forces of law and order. Whilst the press continue to publish inaccurate, poorly researched and deliberately emotive articles there will always be factions in our society who choose to believe and champion their claims, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and somewhat ironically occasionally with violence. The world will never rid itself of individuals and groups of individuals who wish to live outside the law. What we can do is to live, work and play together in such a way that those bent on evil intent are starved of the very things they need to grow and thrive and by this example ensure that the fewest possible people are drawn into their brutal and depraved webs.

And not vote Labour, so your analysis falls down on two points, correct though it may be.

We are not "all at it", this is the cry of those who are at it or would like to be at it! For me TAX avoidance or evasion is just as if not more reprehesable than benefit fraud. I have never knowingly evaded or avoided any persoanl tax liabilty in my 43 years of full time employment and I have never paid someone I have contracted in cash. The old saying you have to earn it to pay it fits, this is criminal and stems from pure greed. The MP's expenses row is nothing compared to this.

It would be difficult to provide an example of what does not exist. Show us a single post wher any poster has said they support terrorism, the islamification of Britain, or any of the other imagined things you state.

Stop being a total d***head.

Agree, nothing new here, terrorist group to use technology to further its evil aims, well who would have expected that.